help with ties and repeated sections

hello there, I'm recreating a few Beatles pieces from sheet music I have and I've come across a problem that I have yet to solve. on the sheet music it calls for what might be a double use tie, the first one goes into a measure that ends in a repeat with the second, jumping over the repeat measure into the next verse, at the same time, changing the pitch of the tied note on the 2nd run through by making it a sharp instead of a natural. At the moment, the only way I can get around it would be to do away with the repeat and put in the repeated section twice with two different transitions being independent of each other.

If it's acceptable on sheet music for what I'm describing, then how can it be done with composer?

Hello, Kyle:

From your description, it sounds like the second "tie" is actually a slur, going over the repeat ending into the second ending, with the note in the second ending raised a half-tone. Does that sound right?

If so, then that's entirely do-able in Composer. I just did a quickie and it plays correctly, based on what I described.

Here's an example:

<center><table border=1><tr><td>Tie-slur example
Tie-slur example.not (3.9 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Hope that helps.

David

hi, I double checked the sheet and the sharp I was seeing was for the staff key, with that out of the way, would it still be a slur instead of a tie?

Hi, Kyle:

So, in other words, the note in the first ending was already sharp, as well as the second ending, and was simply tied across the two endings?

I don't think you can do two different ties in the same direction in Composer.

Here's another example:

<center><table border=1><tr><td>Another example
Tie-slur example.not (4.6 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Composer lets you tie across the repeat ending but holds the note for the full length (3 bars) of the tie, even though only two bars of it are played in each instance.

Your best bet would be to create two endings of two bars each, incorporating the bar with the first of the tied notes as well as each of the endings.

Not exactly as per the sheet music, but then sheet music is a compromise on space and expense anyway.

Hope it works.

David

Hello Kyle and David,

Here's a work-around that I've recommended in the past. You can simulate the second time (to the second ending) using a slur rather than a tie.


This works visually in the notation, but it doesn't play correctly. On the second ending, you'll hear the note stop, at the end of the 4th measure, and then start anew at the second ending.

Sherry, if you're listening to this: Once we have confirmed our understanding of this usability problem, please write up a task that Composer should directly support a note that ties to multiple destinations (typically in two different endings). Thanks.

Cheers
-- Mark

Here's a scan of the original page with what I'm talking about. The applicable ties are outlined in yellow and the key signature sharp in red, so as not to make any confusion like I originally was.

Hi, Kyle:

Mark's suggested work-around will make it look more or less like the sheet music, if that's what you need.

If you need it to sound as written, create two two-bar endings, incorporating the "feel alright" bar into each ending.

That's a catchy song. It could be a big hit for somebody.

My son's band just did a gig at a school and rocked a crowd of teens with "Back In The USSR" for an encore: a group of kids who never lived in a world with a USSR in it!

David

well mark said there's a possibility of making an update to the program that would support stuff like this, once he saw a clear example so I wana see what he has to say before I rewrite the whole thing.

Hello Kyle,

I won't be able to improve the tie-going-to-two-places problem any time soon, given other development priorities.

David's solution is a good one, which has not occurred to me.

Cheers
-- Mark

Howdy Kyle,

Mark does hold good on updates, but it won't happen for a little while out yet Mark's suggested workaround is good for the sheet music, and David's suggestion works for the performance of the piece. The update would have to do with tying them together with the repeat bars.

ttfn,
Sherry

I guess I'll have to for now, I was hopping to have it accurate both on paper and with the way it sounds.

I've been flipping through the book of the first four Beatles albums and I've spotted multiple cases where there was a "tie-going-to-two-places" as mark put it.

also I should probably point out that there is a similar problem in one of the songs where instead of jumping over an ending to make the second tie, it involves a "to coda" jump instead.

Hello Kyle,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Mark's suggested workaround is good for the sheet music, and David's suggestion works for the performance of the piece. The update would have to do with tying them together with the repeat bars.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Perhaps more accurately: Mark's (my) suggested work-around is good only for the sheet music; whereas David's solution works for both the notation and the ending. A musician reading the score is not likely to find it unusual that the first measure of each two-measure ending is duplicated.

Cheers
-- Mark

I just visually checked the sheet music, and in the 'hard days night' album alone, as it's originally written, there are 7 cases of dual ending ties and 4 "to coda" ties.

I don't know if it's a Beatles unique thing or not but something tells me this is more than just an occasional occurrence.

Note: part of one of the "to coda" ties is seen in the same example I presented earlier, going to a completely separate section as apposed to swapping endings. In this case the tie is going to THREE places.

Hello Kyle (and Sherry),

I've added the tie-going-to-two-places feature as task #2050.

Cheers
-- Mark

Thanks alot. after I saw the "to coda" ties, David's solution seemed a rather lengthily prossess as one of the cases would require me to copy almost half a page's worth.

If I may make a suggestion mark, I would suggest not putting a limit cap for the number of layered ties to account for more than two uses in the same beginning (and possibly end) point in the tie.

Hello Kyle,

I agree. The task name for #2050 is: "Support a tie going from one note to two or more other notes in endings or other 'go to' locations."

If there are other Composer users reading this thread, who would like to lobby for this feature, please add your vote here. I'm aware that this tie-going-to-two-(or-more)-places case is not rare in sheet music.

Cheers
-- Mark

Thank you very much. These days it seems hard most places to have the developer's ear on issues like this.

Hi Kyle,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

These days it seems hard most places to have the developer's ear on issues like this.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Many years ago there was a music software company (if I remember correctly, Noteworthy Composer) that hosted "democratic voting for features." It's almost like that with Notation Software, but not quite. It's more like "lobbying for features." Nobody has yet offered to bribe me, though. ;-)

Cheers
-- Mark

Well there are quite a few software developers (not necessarily music related) out there that don't pay too much attention to users bringing up issues like this. Quite a few places I've been, something like this wouldn't even catch the notice of the developers until 500 or so different people complained about the EXACT same issue as eachother.

Hello, all:

Hey, we're lobbyists! Isn't that a lucrative profession in the States?

Kyle: it should be very simple to create the two-bar endings. Highlight the "feel alright" bar with Control-drag; type Control-C; place the cursor at the current second ending; type "qim" and press enter; highlight the new empty bar with Control-drag; type Control-V. Then delete the ending markers and create new ones that include the "feel alright" bars.

I think that's all you need to do, unless I'm missing something.

David