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  #1  
Old 07-09-2006, 09:47 PM
Fred Winterling (harbor1)
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Default I wrote this piece about 9 mon

I wrote this piece about 9 months ago and, like most of my piano pieces, it was full of rubato. I wanted to add strings and other instruments so I redid the song and made it more as written. I'm getting there but still have a lot of work to do on it.

Cheers,
Fred
<center><table border=1><tr><td>Rough Draft
Ariadne.not (74.0 k)</td></tr></table></center>
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  #2  
Old 07-10-2006, 06:37 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Fred, A lot of work left

Hi Fred,

A lot of work left, perhaps, but what a fine start. I am up to my neck in things that need to get done, but I was anxious to download and give it a listen. That listen turned into several. I wouldn't call it catchy, I think; it's more an arresting piece, mostly because of a very haunting melody and a harmonic (and sometimes disharmonic) structure that works very well with it.

It isn't difficult to imagine this for piano and orchestra (my imagination hears a kind of overall Mantovani (sp?) sound), so it will be very interesting to hear what you do with it. I don't imagine the doing will be easy, but this version certainly suggests it'll be worth it.

Keep posting as you work further on it.

all best,
mgj
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  #3  
Old 07-10-2006, 03:58 PM
Fred Winterling (harbor1)
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Default Hi M G, Thanks for your int

Hi M G,

Thanks for your interest in “Ariadne”. I really appreciate your input into much of my stuff. Please feel free to take any of my songs and add your thoughts to them. It could be really interesting. Maybe sometime we could work on something together in our “free time”. That could be fun.

>quote: it's more an arresting piece, mostly because of a
very haunting melody and a harmonic (and sometimes disharmonic)
structure that works very well with it.

Aha! You uncovered one of my ‘secrets’. Eons ago ( before formal piano lessons ) my saxophone teacher taught me how to play a George Shearing style on piano that was very easy to learn because I didn’t have to worry about what to play with my left hand. The left hand was almost the exact same as the right hand, using full chords with both. The passing notes were played with the only finger I had left. You have probably noticed that I love a lot of Major 7ths and Sus 4’s ( often playing the root and the 7th or the 3rd and 4th together) which is what produces the discordance. I think it is buried in my subconscious and shows up no matter what style I’m playing. I’m often tempted to remove it but, what the heck, that’s me. Here’s a very short example of that style.

Cheers,
Fred
<center><table border=1><tr><td>
example.not (15.8 k)</td></tr></table></center>
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  #4  
Old 07-11-2006, 07:15 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Fred, Always liked Shear

Hi Fred,

Always liked Shearing--a very distinctive style. Yes, lots of maj 7ths, etc. Major 7ths are tricky, but you use them well--without that chalk on the blackboard effect. Regardless of what a person calls them, if you have a C,E,F,G,A,B, what you're basically doing is playing a Cmaj7 and an F chord at the same time. How harmonic progressions are analyzed always fascinated me.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Maybe sometime we could work on something together in our “free time”.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

You're right. It could be fun. Maybe when I get this new computer functioning the way I want it to...if I can....Composer is like a new program, being so quick now. But I lost sixteen midi channels with it's integrated sound setup.

BTW, do you know the range of the standard 5-string nylon guitar and the 4-string bass? If you do, somewhere in Share/Music there is a piece (Canyon de Chelly) that uses guitar--perhaps two of them--and I really wonder how much is out of range.

Well, I've had today's listen to Funky Salsa (original version), so it's back to the computer.

best,
mgj
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  #5  
Old 07-11-2006, 04:57 PM
Fred Winterling (harbor1)
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Default Howdy M G, quote: BTW, do y

Howdy M G,

quote: BTW, do you know the range of the standard 5-string nylon guitar and the 4-string bass? If you do, somewhere in Share/Music there is a piece (Canyon de Chelly) that uses guitar--perhaps two of them--and I really wonder how much is out of range

I am no expert in this area. I think Sherry could tell you. However, I THINK it is E-3 to E-6 ( The actual sound is an octave lower ), so the C-3's in Canyon de Chelly may be a little low, technically (not sure about that). The bass should be an octave lower. That wouldn't matter in my band, though. When handing out the charts I would just say " Hey, Louie! Loosen your low E string a bit! "

Cheers,
Fred
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  #6  
Old 07-11-2006, 06:45 PM
Sherry Crann (sherry)
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Default Howdy, I heard my name [img

Howdy,

I heard my name

The range of a nylon string guitar in standard tuning is E2 to E5 (12th fret) and there are usually frets to at least A5 on a "classical" guitar - more on a "jazz" nylon strung. Of course then there are "alternate tunings" you can do, also, which can change the range of the instrument up or down, or both at the same time

A four string electric bass in standard tuning is E1 to G3(which is the 12th fret) or higher, depending on how many frets it has - G4 if it has 24 frets. However, there are also five-string basses (like mine) that have a lower B1 string, and "extended range" basses that go up way high. The most common extended range is a six-string, which goes from B1 up to C3 at the 12th fret of the top string, and usually up to C4 at the 24th fret.

I'm honestly not sure what the tuning of an upright double bass is. I think (though I'm not positive) it starts at C2, and goes up to somewhere a few notes over C5.

I had a page bookmarked at one point that had instrument ranges for a variety of musical instruments, but alas, I just tried to bring it up, and it appears that it no longer exists. There are probably others out there somewhere....

ttfn,
Sherry



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  #7  
Old 07-12-2006, 07:23 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Sherry, Thanks. When yo

Hi Sherry,

Thanks. When you say E2 to E5, are you speaking American or European? Is your middle C a C5 or C4?

Apparently, the standard is to write the treble clef an octave higher than played, but when writing in the bass clef the sound is as written. Is that correct?

If your E5 means the E just north of middle C, I would guess that I'm going to either have to make the guitars into a harp or harpsichord in the Canyon de Chelly piece, or use in addition to a guitar, a banjo and/or perhaps mandolin. It doesn't need to get as high as now written, but does need to get up into octave 6 (the octave above middle C).

Since it is supposed to be portable--that is, get a chellist, a violinist, a flutist, a couple of guitarists and a drum, and you can play it on a canyon rim--instruments with the bulk of a harpsichord or even a harp might defeat the portability.

Ah well, I like the mandolin and banjo, and the sound of either would fit, so I'll see what I can find out about their ranges...the banjo, I have learned, depends on which banjo you are talking about.

all best,
mgj
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  #8  
Old 07-12-2006, 09:55 AM
Lee Eschen (leeschen)
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Default If the sound of a harp might b

If the sound of a harp might be right, you might use an Irish small harp for a higher pitch than a full sized and much better portability.

BTW, an instrument I bought some years ago for its peculiarity was a banjolin, a banjo head with mandolin neck and strings. It has a very interesting sound. UNfortunately, I have never learned to play the darned thing. It might prove suitable for your Canyon de Chelly work.


Lee Eschen
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  #9  
Old 07-12-2006, 10:53 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Lee, Thanks much for the

Hi Lee,

Thanks much for the suggestions. The small Irish harp would probably do for the upper parts. Perhaps the lower, too. I think I have heard a banjolin--at a concert by an Appalachian instrumentalist/singer--years ago.

But I would like to keep it as much as possible to instruments that players could most easily be found for.

The piece was written for a wedding, and was played during the wedding, on the rim of Canyon de Chelly. There were, originally, only a flute, cello and drum. A friend of the bride had her guitar with her and, since there was an extra score, voluntefred to improvise. That's how the guitar came about. Later I added a violin part to re-enforce the flute's treble, and I wrote out a guitar part, which was apparently over-ambitious at the upper end. I guess that is what will have to be given to another instrument.

all best,
mgj
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  #10  
Old 07-12-2006, 07:10 PM
Fred Winterling (harbor1)
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Default Hi MG and Everyone, I thought

Hi MG and Everyone,
I thought I would upload "Ariadne" with the orchestra parts I have done so far. I hope it is not too "cluttered". I am still playing with the velocities (having a ton of fun with the expression control). Strings are not my specialty, so maybe someone can tell me if I am heading in the right direction or if I really need to veer in another direction? Thanks! BTW I used String Ensemble 2 for the Viola, cello and the contrabass because it sounded much better on my machine than the correct instruments.
Cheers,
Fred
<center><table border=1><tr><td>Still a rough draft
Ariadne _ Piano and Orchestra.not (253.6 k)</td></tr></table></center>
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  #11  
Old 07-13-2006, 09:50 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Fred, The right track, I

Hi Fred,

The right track, I think. It will be interesting to see (well, hear)what you do with it. Some things I would try out, if I had written the piece, are:

I'd try thinning out the strings to violins I and II. The reason is that unless I knew it was going to be played by an orchestra with 26 in the violin section, I'd be afraid of dilution. Unless there were really big differences between I and II, I think I'd try putting them on the same staff. Where you want the section split, as opposed to the whole section playing chords, you can use "div." When they are all playing, use "unis."

I'd try different instrumental combinations and pitches. For instance in the introductory bars, I might feature the harp, with sustained chords in the middle strings, or the clarinet, or flutes, or flute and harp. The introductory bars to the 3rd movement of the "Christmas" symphony I wrote a couple of years ago went through many different instrumental combinations, and next time I go back to it, I suspect the one I settled on won't satisfy me.

When I do experimenting, I find it easier to do a SaveAs, rather than changing the original, and give it a descriptive name, like "FileName meas 6-21 2 clnts added string octave changed." Eliminates a lot of re-changing and any changes I then want to keep can be copy/pasted.

I'd think about giving the piano, as the featured instrument, some solo work, like the sax gets in other pieces.

These are just what-I-would-do (actually do do) and not even suggestions. I guess the one suggestion I would have is that unless something seems finished today, and still seems finished in a few weeks, then thinking about it and trying out ideas that occur is good. But I like the piece and the track you're on is the one I'd stay on.

all best,
mgj
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  #12  
Old 07-13-2006, 02:24 PM
Daniel Vallery (danielv)
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Default Hey Fred, I don't want it

Hey Fred,
I don't want it to sound like I'm dissing the rough draft, but at first I wasn't too impressed with it: just thought it a normal, un-exciting piece. But when I heard the orchestral version, I was stunned, it was so beautiful! As quite a lot of the serious music I listen to is orchestral, so I can see that it can be improved, but this second draft is one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard. Maj7's have always had a kinda special place in my soul, but you use them in a way that compliments that beauty. And I have to say, I fell in love with the timpani roll in measure 31. Cant wait till the day it's finished! (and I cant wait for the day I can write orchestral music too. Its somewhere in my future, that's for sure!)
~Daniel
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  #13  
Old 07-13-2006, 05:06 PM
Fred Winterling (harbor1)
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Default Hi Daniel, Thank you for yo

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your wonderful words of encouragement. I don’t consider myself to be a composer (or arranger) …yet. I’m still a saxophone player at heart. As a young musician, I was fortunate to have the respect and adoration of many fans ( 50 years ago, we called them groupies), and that gave me the right to walk with a “swagger” and provided me with the motivation to retain my reputation. I wrote one rock and roll song when I was 16, and that was the extent of my composer status….until Mark provided us with such great software. My arranging experience was limited to statements such as “Hey Joe, you play this” and “Hey Wayne, you play that”. Nothing was ever put on paper. I didn’t write much because all I had was a broken down piano or my sax and I got tired of playing three notes and writing them on the staff paper.

Quote: “I don't want it to sound like I'm dissing the rough draft, but at
first I wasn't too impressed with it: just thought it a normal,
un-exciting piece. But when I heard the orchestral version, I was
Stunned”

That explains, in a nutshell, how I write my ballads or more serious pieces. I sit at the keyboard, eyes closed, in a trance. I vividly hear the orchestra playing in my mind and I play along with it. I imagine I am writing the theme song for a movie. Unfortunately, the software can not record the orchestra playing in my mind, only the piano comes out. Therefore, it is un-exciting and normal by itself.
The Greek goddess, Ariadne, is the subject of many artists and poets because of her powerful story ( primarily of love lost and found again). In this case, I imagined the movie was “Ariadne” and this is the theme played throughout. A piece I wrote last September, “The Summer’s Gone” was written the same way.

Quote: “(and I cant wait for the day I can write
orchestral music too. Its somewhere in my future, that's for sure!)”

Wrong!! That day is here right now, today, this instant! You would not believe how easy it really is. If you look closely at the arrangement, you will find that many of the strings parts are simply copy and paste of the piano part ( left hand or right hand ) to start with. Then edited pretty extensively to get rid of some clutter and add some counter melody with the clarinet, or flute etc. In this case, the clarinet and viola are together. Sure, it needs a lot more work, but it is at least a start. If I hear something in my mind, I will add a staff called “add notes” and try that part along with it with different instruments. If it works, I copy it and add it to the arrangement and get rid of the add notes staff. If you would like to see a good example of that method, I have a file that I started to add orchestra to my piano piece “The Summer’s Gone”. It needs a lot of editing, but I will be working on that. I use too much pedal in my playing and that needs to be edited first, then the strings need to be worked on quite a bit. I have only one measure of clarinet ( just to see how it would work ), a little flute and a little harp and timpany. If you would like to see that file, let me know and I would be happy to upload it. The piano alone piece was uploaded in Sept. I would be glad to upload both files if it would help to show the “simplicity” of creating an orchestral part out of a simple piano arrangement. Thanks again for the kind words.
Cheers,
Fred

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  #14  
Old 07-13-2006, 05:20 PM
Fred Winterling (harbor1)
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Default Hi MG, Wow, I really apprec

Hi MG,

Wow, I really appreciate the suggestions. I will be trying every one of them. By "thinning out the strings to I and II, do you mean to eliminate the other strings or to simply place those parts in the Violins I and II staves?
Boy, you and I do the same thing with "Save AS". In all of my pieces, I have at least 20 or more files for each song. I name them similarly to yours. My four most favorite words are save as and copy/paste. Thank you for your insight!

Fred
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  #15  
Old 07-13-2006, 11:29 PM
Lee Eschen (leeschen)
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Default Fred, I just had a chance to l

Fred, I just had a chance to listen to your Ariadne, both the piano version and the orchestral version. I am impressed, to say the least. It is, quite simply, a beautiful piece. I wish I had a better midi setup to be able to hear it in its full glory.

As I listened, it reminded me of some of the music by Ferrante &amp; Teicher on their dual piano albums and, of course, they did a lot of movie themes. I would be very interested to hear an arrangement for twin pianos plus orchestral harp only, or perhaps with some string reinforcement. Perhaps the second piano could pick up on the clarinet and viola tracks?

I particularly love the harp glissandos towards the end which is why I think that twin pianos and harp would be a great arrangement. Keep up the great work, Fred! I may not post much, but I read most and download most music by forum members. You and MG have given me some wonderful listening pleasure and I thank you both for sharing your work with all of us.


Lee Eschen
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  #16  
Old 07-14-2006, 01:55 AM
Fred Winterling (harbor1)
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Default Hi Lee, Thank you very kindly

Hi Lee,
Thank you very kindly. Thanks too, for the idea of twin pianos and harp. That could be very interesting. If I get a chance to play around with that, I will definitely upload it so you can lend an ear. I actually stole the harp glissando from one of my own songs. I started to add orchestra to "The Summer's Gone" months ago and never got around to finishing it ( I am working on that now ), but the gliss was a part of the ending to that song. There was more to it in the other song, so I might still be able to keep it in.

quote: As I listened, it reminded me of some of the music by Ferrante &amp; Teicher on their dual piano albums

Wow, that is really strange! I got the exact same feeling when I listened to the third section with the octaves in the right hand. I thought that part sounded a little like Ferrante and Teicher also, and I didn't think that until just a couple days ago. Thanks again for your suggestions.

Cheers,
Fred
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  #17  
Old 07-14-2006, 10:38 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Fred, I like this more e

Hi Fred,

I like this more each time I hear it. On my machine, the slow violins have a hiccupy effect (was the same on my old machine), so I tried the string ensemble 1 preset, and it goes away.

What I meant by trimming the strings was basically editing. Look at measure three, where the violins have an E5, G#4, G#4, E4 and E5. There may be a bit of over-kill there, and the E4 isn't possible since the lowest violin note is G4. The viola has a G#4, which the violins already have, and the viola can handle the E4 (its low note being C4). However, the violins are basically on one side of the orchestra, and the other strings more or less on the other, so the sound source has to be considered, too. Could the third violins be worked as chords in either the first or second violins?

Anyhow, that sort of thing.

I wonder about diminishing the volume, uniformly, of everything but the harp, clarinet and piano, and maybe upping the volume of those a bit.

I really like the doubling of the contrabass and the acoustic bass--it gives a wonderful pizzicato/sustained effect. It is an effect I'm likely to borrow.

Keep posting.

all best,
mgj
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