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  #1  
Old 09-03-2005, 07:37 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default This is an experiment and I do

This is an experiment and I don't know where it is going--quite possibly to the point where I feel I have experimented enough, and then it will just stop and be thrown away. The purpose in doing it is simply to actually DO something with the whole tone scale, or scales, since there are two of them, which if played one after the other starting from the same tone has something of a chromatic feel.

The only "rule" in whole tone composition is, apparently, that the blurry feel imparted by the scale be kept interesting, which means using more than the augmented chords which are the only ones available, if you stick to the idea of the 1,3 and 5 tones being basic. One way of maintaining interest is through melody. In practice melodies, even using the whole tone system, tend to have diatonic elements, and this means using more than augmented chords. One way to keep the whole tone feel is to switch between the two scales, as often as every chord or two. If the feel is maintained, the whole tone rule is also.

One thing I want to find out in this experiment is how far one can go with accidentals and keep the feel. (I mean tones accidental to the scale; not those needed to write something using the system.) I have never read a discussion of accidentals in whole tone composition. Although I imagine there are some, I thought it would be more immediate and meaningful if I simply went ahead and came up with some music that would require them. In an early measure, for instance, I have used a straight Bb chord. In the three black note system, there is no F. In the two black note system, there is no Bb or D. I suppose one might say he has switched between the two systems in the same chord, which makes no sense. In any case, the question is still one of feel. Is the shimmer of the whole tone scale maintained, or does it turn dull, or maybe glaring?

As I indicated, this is on-going, and may well just end when I'm done, even if the music isn't done. I am currently in the middle of a chromatic build-up to a waltz section, which I can't get going on until I come up with a theme that works as a waltz.

I will post the piece again when something more is completed. Any comments are and will be welcome, but I would especially be interested in knowing if and where the sense of whole tone-ness disappears to someone else's ear.

all best,
mgj

<center><table border=1><tr><td>whole tone experiment
Shady Lady 9-2-05.not (86.7 k)</td></tr></table></center>

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  #2  
Old 09-03-2005, 06:41 PM
Mark Walsen (markwa)
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Default Hello M.G., I've been w

Hello M.G.,

I've been watching and listening to the progress of this piece over the last several days, as you submitted it in some bug reports (regarding adding notes after mid-measure clef changes). My ear was definitely hearing the augmented chords. Until you described above what you were doing, I didn't realize that the augment chords were naturally produced by the whole tone scale premise of this composition.

I think "experimenting" with constraints, such as sticking to a whole note scale, is an excellent way to develop one's composition skills. If I were to teach composition to others, that would be one of the main pedagogical techniques I would employ. Here, you have very strictly constrained yourself to the whole note scale. Such a constraint can paradoxically be very liberating. It means that you can, and should, focus on all the other elements of the music, which is exactly what you've done!

Within the constraint of the whole note scale, you have exercised much freedom in rhythms and texture. Texture in piano music is like orchestration in an orchestral piece. In piano music, texture is, to a large extent, how notes are distributed across the 88 keys, just as notes are distributed across instruments in an orchestra.

Other elements of texture that this piece uses to keep variety and interest are: octaves, rolled chords, and arpeggiation of chords at different speeds.

The whole note scale and its subsequent confinement to augmented chords come at the cost of homelessness, quite similar to the disorientation that 12-tone serialism brings to (or, rather, takes away from) harmony. This piece does convey such a feeling of "where am I, where am I going?" Such can be the consequence, if not the intention, of restricting the piece to the whole note scale (or 12-tone serialism).

If disorientation in harmony, homelessness is not the intention of the piece, then there might be ways to ground it. There are moments in which this piece seems to be to briefly settle harmonically, before it takes off again in long stretches of whole note and arpeggiated augmented chord sequences. I haven't tried to analyze what it is that offers these brief moments of harmonic groundedness, but for my ears, I found those moments satisfying-- similar to a V7-to-I resolution-- and wished for more such moments and longer such moments. I don't know if that's possible within the confines of the whole note scale. Debussy would know.

I'm quite interested in your work here, especially the idea of restricting yourself in one dimension of the music so that you might actually feel more free in the other dimensions of the music. I've often done the same thing myself. For example, I've written a suite of piano pieces, each one that confines itself to a special interval (minor and major 2nds, minor and major 3rds, augmented 4th, perfect 5th, minor and major 6ths, minor and major 7ths). Each hand is only allowed to play a the vertical interval, never (or rarely) single notes. I had a lot of fun writing these pieces and felt that I learned a lot doing so.

Cheers
-- Mark
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  #3  
Old 09-04-2005, 10:44 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Mark, Thanks for your co

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your comments. They were very helpful and may tend to support what I was trying to do in a couple of places. I like the term "homelessness" to describe the whole tone feel. It is sort of like a reflection in slightly rippled water--you can tell what the reflection is, but it won't sit still and let you see detail; it won't rest. I wonder if a couple of places your ear heard a resting, a grounding, was in measures 6 and 8? I've tried the same device in what I've just added to the piece. Well, half of it; not the fermata.

You might notice the title has changed, which along with the fact that I have begun to use repeats, indicates that it has become a little more than an experiment, and instead of being something to do a little more with now and then, I've spent the last few hours with it. An idea to do a group of pieces which would be impressions of certain cats I've known has been in the back of my mind for quite a while. Tassle and Smudgie were very laid-back and clumsy cats examples of the species. What I had done so far seemed to fit them, so I decided to make the little waltz portray them, too. I don't think all the piece in the group, assuming I write the others, will use the whole tone system, but I think I am seeing some ways it could be used occasionally in a composition using a tonal center.

There is a section of this to come, rather sprightly, in a faster tempo, in which I'll explore how far can be gone conceiving of the whole tone scale in something of the same way as a C, C#, A, Ab, etc., scale--in other words, having half tones available as accidentals. If you go too far with the extra tones available to a diatonic scale, you lose the tonal center, or feel of that scale (or modulate to another one). Similarly, if you go too far using the whole tone scale, you would lose the feeling which is its center. I suppose how far one can go with the extra tones is a matter for the ear, or rather ears. When the majority of ears agree it's too far, then it is?

all best,
mgj
<center><table border=1><tr><td>Tassle
Tassle and Smudgie 9-4-05.not (138.4 k)</td></tr></table></center>
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  #4  
Old 09-04-2005, 10:48 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default PS. When are you going to pos

PS. When are you going to post the piano suite? It sounds very interesting.

mgh
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  #5  
Old 09-04-2005, 07:26 PM
Mark Walsen (markwa)
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Default Hello M.G., Wow, this piece

Hello M.G.,

Wow, this piece is really developing. Your last version stopped around measure 25. More and more things are happening as it goes on. Tension is building. The whole note scale is relentless in holding back resolution.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I wonder if a couple of places your ear heard a resting, a grounding, was in measures 6 and 8?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>No, those seem to be rhythmic resting places, but not harmonic. Actually, I don't hear anything like a resolution in harmony. Such might be impossible staying purely in a whole not scale, because the resultant augmented 4th chord is the least resolving of any chord in the 12-tone universe.

I think what my ears were hearing were not resolutions in harmonies but, rather, shift in tonal centers. Here's where I heard some:
  • last half note of measure 3
  • last half note of measure 11
  • first beat of measure 12 (the last half note of measure 11 seemed like a very brief harmony modulation that immediately returned at the beginning of measure 12)
  • first beat of 20 (which you recognize with a key signature change)
  • at the 2nd beat of measure 28, everything changes, with a chromatic progression of whole tone chords (augment 4th chords)-- this was a smart idea to build up even more interest
It's clear that your using your head, as well as your emotions, in composing this piece. Many listeners will probably find the piece too cerebral. But I would offer this piece to would-be listeners as a challenge, to listen outside of the bounds of normally expected harmony and focus on what else is happening in the music. A lot is happening in the music.

By the way, can you play this on the piano?! It's playable, but probably only by a virtuoso pianist. The left-hand leaves are killers for the pianist (but effective compositionally).

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

When are you going to post the piano suite?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>When am I ever going to get around to entering any of my past compositions into Composer, I ask myself.

Cheers
-- Mark




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  #6  
Old 09-04-2005, 09:45 PM
Sherry Crann (sherry)
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Default Howdy, I have nothing of va

Howdy,

I have nothing of value to add to the above conversation But I do want to say that it is most interesting, as is the composition. I'm listening to it, and trying to grasp different aspects of your intentions with different "listens". This is very instructional for me - thanks for sharing the piece, as well as your thinking behind it!

I also definitely agree that using some sort of boundary for one aspect (eg. whole tone) can be very freeing for exploring other aspects of the music (eg. rhythm), and this is an idea that I've been trying to explore in my own practice time for my accompaniment, as well as practicing things that I can "solo" when I'm playing with other musicians. A bit different application, but the same concept.

Keep it up - I'm learning all the time, and loving it!

ttfn,
Sherry

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  #7  
Old 09-05-2005, 08:18 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Mark, Thanks again.

Hi Mark,

Thanks again.

I am stuck a bit now, or rather working out the next section in my head.

One change. The last two beats of measure 11 should have an A minor chord in the right hand as well as the left.

You ask could I play this. Once upon a time, yes. Now, definitely not--not even with practice, at least not up to tempo. Too long away from the keyboard. But I haven't been worrying about human performance yet. When I get that far, there are a number of places some annotation might be added (e.g., measure 12, suggesting some RH over), and some simplification might be in order. But I suspect there will be some passages, even then, that might require a virtuoso's technique.

quote: When am I ever going to get around to entering any of my past compositions into Composer, I ask myself.

Perhaps you need to furnish a copyist with a copy of Composer ;)

all best,
mgj
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  #8  
Old 09-05-2005, 09:00 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Sherry, Thank you for yo

Hi Sherry,

Thank you for your interest. It is fun, after many years of thinking I'd really like to play with that toy, to actually get your hands on it, wind it up and put it through its paces.

This started out as pure experiment, but the intention changed somewhat when the idea flickered across my mind that what I had so far done made a very good impression of a couple of cats I had known, both large, both white, both as friendly as dogs, and both about as cat-graceful as elephants trying to pick their way through the Viking glass outlet store. One of them pulled a chair frame down on his head and spent the last half of his life as a winking kitty; the other could jump up onto a shelf and knock down a glass which was sitting at the BACK of the shelf. But I'm more after a general impression that specifics--the kind of impression of character one gets from looking at a portrait as one concentrates on one feature then another and finally derives an overall sense of the person (or cats, in this case).

BTW, I've decided to get my new whistle on my next visit to the city, where there are a couple of music stores (and it will make filling the gas tank a bit less disgusting).

The "Simple Gifts" piece is a week, maybe two, away from being ready to send. I'm working with volume levels now.

all best,
mgj

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  #9  
Old 09-05-2005, 02:01 PM
Sherry Crann (sherry)
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Default Howdy M G, You are one busy

Howdy M G,

You are one busy guy! And those are some pretty funny cat stories - I can see those antics in my head as I listen to your piece

Good luck with the whistle - that will be fun Some places will let you play a "test" whistle before you buy, so you may want to take along some of those little pocket alcohol wipes to clean it up before you play it.

And re. Simple Gifts, I was playing a song that I had written for my kids, and I realized that a couple of motifs from Simple Gifts are present, if only faintly, but definitely reminiscent of the song. However, I use a different meter for my kids' song, so it's sort of like a hazy recollection in parts of SG. SG is quite the pervasive influence I'm looking forward to hearing your completed work - a grand expansion of a good theme!

ttfn,
Sherry
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  #10  
Old 09-07-2005, 07:52 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Mark and Sherry, I think

Hi Mark and Sherry,

I think that I have finished this. I have added a march-ish section, which like the little waltz in pseudo 3/4, I've made a pseudo 2/4. Then I've reprised the waltz, in a different "key" and up an octave, and finally recapitulated the beginning theme.

Of course there is phrasing, dynamics--both marks and sound--to do, and I become not utterly lazy every now and again. I am still tinkering with the idea of some alterations to tempo, but not much at any point. But the beginning could be somewhat slower, maybe, and the march faster, and the transition from the march back to the waltz slower. But who knows? I've already tried upping the tempos of the little waltz, and it did NOT work.

I think it might be interesting to see what I might come up with if I did a modified version for the pianist who is not a virtuoso or doesn't have time to practice one piece for hours.

Somewhere along the line, the idea of orchestration popped up, and from that point, I've thought of instrumentation as I wrote. Since I don't think I can whip up much enthusiasm for orchestrating a single short composition, perhaps the desire to do it will prod me to do some more with a suite of impressions of cats (at least the subject should be popular). However, it will be for piano first, and at least one other piece will employ the whole-tone system.

One think I haven't done with this piece until about a half hour ago is apply the acid test--that is, listen to it whole. After about six play-throughs, I'm finding that it mostly works for me. Of course I'm hearing in my head the work still to do with dynamics--the first theme is quite a bit quieter, for example, and those little tempo alterations. But hopefully it's not unpleasing.

all best,
mgj

<center><table border=1><tr><td>Tassle and Smudgie
Tassle and Smudgie 9-6-05.not (229.6 k)</td></tr></table></center>
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  #11  
Old 09-08-2005, 05:16 PM
Mark Walsen (markwa)
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Default Hello M.G., Congratulations

Hello M.G.,

Congratulations on finishing this piece. It demonstrates a lot of composition technique. You were able to do this so quickly, too.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

One think I haven't done with this piece until about a half hour ago is apply the acid test--that is, listen to it whole.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I wish I could write that way. Until I had Composer, I wrote at the piano, I would start at the beginning of the piece, and play up to the point where I had last stopped writing, and improvise a few more notes, or if I were lucky, a few more measures, and jot them down. It was like pushing a manual lawn-mover over deep grass-- I'd keep having to back up, often from the beginning edge of the cut lawn, to gain enough momentum to cut another foot of grass.

Seeing the incremental versions of the piece that you have submitted to the forum, it's clear that you write in voices and lines. That's a good approach to writing music for certain styles. I should do more of that myself.

Good work!

Cheers
-- Mark
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  #12  
Old 09-09-2005, 07:50 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi all, Mark was right. Th

Hi all,

Mark was right. This would be very difficult in places to play without a lot of practice. So I tried to modify as many of those places as I could. In a couple of places I like the changes, so will be using them in the final piano version. Then I will see what it sounds like as an orchestral piece. This version incorporates the tempo changes I mentioned above.

all best,
mgj
<center><table border=1><tr><td>TS.not
Tassle and Smudgie modiified 9-7-05.not (229.4 k)</td></tr></table></center>
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  #13  
Old 09-09-2005, 03:56 PM
Mark Walsen (markwa)
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Default Hello M.G., I haven't p

Hello M.G.,

I haven't printed Tassle and Smudgie yet to try playing it, but I can see that my downfall will be the leaps in the bass. That just happens to be an especially weak area in my playing. I've always been lousy playing ragtime for that reason.

The Lento marketing doesn't seem quite right to me, but I think I understand where that slow tempo marking comes from. There is overall a slow rhythm of 3 half notes per measure (that's what you mean by waltz, right?), underneath which there are fast rhythms. I'd probably side-step the issue and use d=47 (47 half notes per minute), and give the player some initial expressive suggestion rather than a traditional Italian tempo.

I wonder, though, whether I'm hearing the whole rhythmic structure differently than what you intended. (This is issue sort of like that famous ambiguous drawing of an old "hag" lady, which if you look at it a different way looks like an early 1900's much younger woman wearing a hat with a feather.) Instead of a 6:4 meter (which suggests a division of two dotted half notes), and instead of a 3:2 meter (which suggests divisions of 3 half notes-- the waltz?), I hear 2:4 (each measure has two quarter notes). This way of hearing the piece probably totally destroys the waltz that you heard when you were composing it. Is the waltz the 3 half notes per measure? I do hear and see a 3:4 waltz starting in measure 33, ending later, but starting again in measure 59. Perhaps you're playing games with the listeners ear, shifting between a 3:2 waltz and a double-time 3:4 waltz?

I suspect that the reason I'm not hearing the rhythmic structure as clearly as you do, as composer, is that no MIDI velocity editing has been done yet. Every note has a velocity of 64. It's fairly tedious to manually edit the velocity of notes. A later version of Composer will have tools that will make it easier to do a lot of MIDI velocity editing at once. The current version does have some options that can help. For example, if you add accent marks, then you can use a Region menu command to select notes that use a particular accent mark. Then you can change the MIDI velocity of those notes all at once.

I'll be very interested in hearing your orchestral version of Tassle and Smudgie, if you decide to do it.

Cheers
-- Mark


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  #14  
Old 09-09-2005, 07:11 PM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi Mark, No, I think you

Hi Mark,

No, I think you're seeing the fresh young thing with the feather in her hat. I chose 6/4 for a couple of reasons, one of which it can be either duple or triple, in effect, depending on how you divide it. If you indeed hear the waltz beginning at measure 33 (where it begins) and measure 59 (where it is repeated, though not exactly), then you have heard the little waltz sections. Sandwiched between (I believe that's where I put it) is a little march, probably with a 2/4 flavor. The other reason for the 6/4 meter is that if you think of it as not divided, there is a less frequent primary accent, which is what I wanted for the first theme (a repeated figure, really, I guess). I thought of 12/4, originally, and changing to 3/4 for the waltz and 2/4 for the march and the section with the left hand octaves. But I don't like to change time signature if it can be avoided--purely personal prejudice.

Anyhow, it sounds as if you have heard what I intended, which of course does not make me unhappy.

I thought when I closed the file last night that I'd stick in the dynamic marks tonight and then print it out. But yikes there are indeed more accents planned, too, and I haven't done anything with note velocity, other than a few measures where I reduced it in the left hand to confirm how those measures would sound. I will do those things tonight.

"Lento" for me still best describes the feeling I want from the first section. But where the tempo changes, I think instead of being prescriptive with numerical tempo indications, I'll change them to terms like "little slow waltz," "little march" and "energetic."

Sorry about the left hand jumps. When I last played the piano, about 2o years ago, I was playing a lot of rags, mostly Joplin, and thirty years before that I learned most of Chopin's waltzes, so I suppose I don't think much about them. You might bring the notes played by the little finger up and octave and hit them a bit harder. At least see how it sounds that way.

Thanks for the comments and especially for reminding me that the piece is not done.

all best,
mgj
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  #15  
Old 09-09-2005, 10:11 PM
Mark Walsen (markwa)
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Default Hello M.G., Your explanatio

Hello M.G.,

Your explanation about what the 6/4 meter is used throughout the piece makes sense to me. 6/4 is a common denominator between 3/4 and 2/4, which are alternatively used through the piece, like shifting gears going up and down hills in a car; and in other places "there is a less frequent primary accent", which gives the piece a feeling of fluidity, consistent with the "homeless" harmony of the whole scale and subsequent augmented 4th chords.

Regarding your last comment, I didn't intend to imply that the piece is not done, unless you mean that the annotations are done. I can empathize with that; more times than not I never get around to adding any annotations except the most important ones. Heck, I know what my piece is supposed to sound like, and nobody else is ever going to play it, so why bother? :-) (I don't really believe that; I added dynamic marks, accents marks, and such fairly early in the development of Composer.)

I've tried to imagine the personality of your two cats. I hate to admit it, but I'm a cat person also. In fact, I used to have a "Developer's Blog" at this web site, and I talked about my cat a lot. Nobody was interested. I can't blame them.

Let me guess at the personality of your cats, based on your musical descriptions of them; and you tell me whether I'm close or not. These are fairly mature cats, but not really old. Maybe 5 to 7 years old. Their personalities are fairly similar; they're a pair; I didn't hear a conflict of personalities between the two cats. They are somewhat aloof-- not the kind of cats where you say, "here kitty, kitty" and they come up running to be petted. Nevertheless, they are friendly (and, of course, especially friendly to you; cats aren't dumb; they know who feeds them). Even in middle age, they have a certain amount of playfulness, but restrained, somewhat dignified, in contrast to the playfulness of kittens, or an adult cat that has had too much catnip. How close was I? If I'm wrong, please shoot me instead of thinking you need to rewrite the piece to better describe the cats. Usually, I listen to music abstractly, so I don't have a lot of practice listening for stories or portraits. 'Kitten on the Keys' is an exception.

Cheers
-- Mark


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  #16  
Old 09-12-2005, 08:18 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default Hi all, I won't pretend

Hi all,

I won't pretend this is finished, but I am finished with it for now. I have a yen to do something raggish while I finish Simple Gifts.

Mark, your guess about the cats is pretty accurate, given that Tassle, a SE Ohio cat all his life, died in 75 and Smudgie, born in AZ died in OH about 20 years ago. I was thinking of them as mature cats. There was very little personality difference between them. There were more laid back than aloof. The one thing you missed was their elephantine clumsiness, which was, of course, endearing. But you were close enough that I am not thinking of a re-write.

Here is the .not file.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>tands
Tassle and Smudgie 9-12-05.not (236.9 k)</td></tr></table></center>

best.
mgj
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  #17  
Old 09-12-2005, 08:21 AM
M G Jacobs (mgj32)
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Default as a PS to the above, here is

as a PS to the above, here is the modified version, which I hope makes it less awkward to play without changing the sound too much.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>tandsmod
Tassle and Smudgie modiified 9-12-05.not (235.5 k)</td></tr></table></center>
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  #18  
Old 09-12-2005, 04:52 PM
Mark Walsen (markwa)
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Default Hello M.G., Your addition o

Hello M.G.,

Your addition of various annotations (dynamic marks, accent marks, RH/LH, tempo marks, etc.) make this piece look finished. It's a pleasure to see as well as hear.

It was fun guessing what your cats were like.

Cheers
-- Mark
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