Moderate Latency with MIDI Keyboard

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I'm using an old MIDI KeyBoard (sorry I forget the name) that my daughter used years ago.

I'm using a TASCAM US-144MKII External Interface with a T420 Lenovo Laptop running Windows 7 x64.

To my surpize I just plugged it in and started Notation Composer and it Worked.

But the Latency is just bad enough to be annoying.

I've read through the threads on latency like this one.

http://www.notation.com/vb-forum/showthread.php?t=2111

But my TASCAM US-144MKII does support ASIO so I should not need ASIO4ALL, right?

My question is if I apply the "Click the box to UNcheck it that says [Open for MIDI output."] and my Interface supports ASIO, do I really need other tools ( LoopBe and SynthFont).

Could you explain a little more why?

Will I get no sound when I "uncheck Open for MIDI output", and I have to replace it with something that has low latency?

Is the Latency a Playback problem? If it is and Notation supports ASIO and my interface supports ASIO why is there a latency problem?

Or is the Latency problem the "MIDI Synthesizer built into Windows 7"?

Just trying to understand it all, I like minimalist solutions and it is partly why I use the TASCAM Interface because it does support ASIO.

I assume once I'm done I can mute say the Left Hand Piano Staff and Just play along while watching Notation play the Right Hand etc.

Not interested in Recording just yet.

Thanks

[mswlogo]

I have it working.

I did not need ASIO4ALL as expected.

I had problems with LoopBe1 detecting MIDI Feedback. I googled around for that problem and other people think they were getting false MIDI Feeback errors. The Keyboard would work fine, but as soon as I started playback on Notation Composer it would detect feedback after about 1 measure.

Folks suggested using LoopBe30 and disable the Feedback check and that worked.

I think I can answer most my own questions now.

The Windows MIDI Synth won't play through ASIO (maybe it could through ASIO4ALL, you have to have low latency to the Speakers (i.e. bypass Windows Audio Mixer)) by using SynthFont you get a different MIDI Synth (better/faster?) that supports ASIO (needed for low latency).

So you set Notation Composer to Output to the LoopBe virtual cable and SynthFont to use that LoopBe virtual cable as MIDI input.

I don't think the instruments sound quite as good.

It's a MK-4902 Kaysound Keyboard, not expensive but it works pretty good.

If I change the MIDI instrument on the KeyBoard it works. But as soon as I play Music from Notation it sets it back to Piano. I made sure I did not use Channel 1 in the Notation and kept that available for the KeyBoard, but that didn't seem to do the trick.

[dj]

Hi,

Go to Setup/Midi Device Configuration and double click on the device you want to send to. In the dialogue box that comes up, uncheck Echo Midi Input To Output. That should get rid of your feedback problems.

Midi channel numbers have nothing to do with Voice numbers. To change the voice you wish to hear (instrument sound), click on the Speaker icon to the left of the track (in Window view) and select a new sound from the box. It's a General Midi list by default.

To change sounds within a piece of music, use the Sound Changes tab in the Main Palette to set a new sound by clicking in the place you want it.

Good luck.

David

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by dj

Hi,

Go to Setup/Midi Device Configuration and double click on the device you want to send to. In the dialogue box that comes up, uncheck Echo Midi Input To Output. That should get rid of your feedback problems.

Midi channel numbers have nothing to do with Voice numbers. To change the voice you wish to hear (instrument sound), click on the Speaker icon to the left of the track (in Window view) and select a new sound from the box. It's a General Midi list by default.

To change sounds within a piece of music, use the Sound Changes tab in the Main Palette to set a new sound by clicking in the place you want it.

Good luck.

David

I did uncheck "Echo Midi Input To Output" and it did not fix it.

I change Instruments all the time with the Speaker Icon in Notation. But if I'm not recording what "Staff" (Speaker Icon) is there to change instrument (Voice) on for the KeyBoard?

Each Staff is assigned a MIDI Channel and a Voice.

The Keyboard is on Channel 1 and can select it's own Voice.

But something in Notation is overriding the Voice on KeyBoard Channel (Channel 1), which I setup such that no Staff is assigned to.

[Sherry C]

Hi,

I have the Kaysound keyboard, too - we're talking about just a MIDI controller, correct?

For my setup, I use
(1) ASIO4ALL as the ASIO driver (yes, you'll want this )
(2) SynthFont as my playback device (with the MIDI loop disabled, as you've already done).
(3) and turn the GS Wavetable OFF. It interferes with ASIO, and will cause latency issues even with other devices (pernicious little bugger).

In Composer,

1. click on Setup/MIDI Devices Configuration
2. click on "Ports/Select Ports.
3. In the right-hand panel, make sure that "Microsoft GS Wavetable" is UNchecked.
4. Ok/exit out the dialogs

That hopefully should do the trick.


ttfn,
Sherry

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Sherry C

Hi,

I have the Kaysound keyboard, too - we're talking about just a MIDI controller, correct?

For my setup, I use
(1) ASIO4ALL as the ASIO driver (yes, you'll want this )
(2) SynthFont as my playback device (with the MIDI loop disabled, as you've already done).
(3) and turn the GS Wavetable OFF. It interferes with ASIO, and will cause latency issues even with other devices (pernicious little bugger).

In Composer,

1. click on Setup/MIDI Devices Configuration
2. click on "Ports/Select Ports.
3. In the right-hand panel, make sure that "Microsoft GS Wavetable" is UNchecked.
4. Ok/exit out the dialogs

That hopefully should do the trick.


ttfn,
Sherry

Sherry you don't need ASIO4ALL if your sound card supports ASIO. ASIO4ALL is a bandaide for sound cards that don't have ASIO support.

I did everything you said and it mostly works.

Except I got MIDI Feedback, I switched to LoopBe30 and that fixed that.

My only issue (which is not huge) is something I think in Composer is overriding the Instrument (voice) I choose on the KeyBoard. If I Choose for example 16 for Organ (on the keyboard display), the Organ works fine. But as soon as I play music from Notation to play along with, it changes KeyBoard (sound it produces) back to Piano even though KeyBoard display will still show 16.

How do you control the KeyBoard's instrument (Voice) in Notation (when not recording). There is no staff associated with the KeyBoard.

EDIT: A little more info on Notation Changing KeyBoard Instrument.

In SynthFont you can see a temp Midi Channel with Oragan Selected. As soon as I hit Play on Notation it Changes to Piano.

While it's playing I can change KeyBoard again to Organ and it will stick. The second I touch the staff, to say jump to another part of the staff, it flips back to Piano.

Also I have to have LoopBack in LoopBe30 on to get any sound from Notation or KeyBoard. That does not make sense to me. Nothing should need to be looped.

[mswlogo]

I reinstalled LoopBe1 and magically got it working without the MIDI loopback error. I swear I set it up the same way.

It seems the KeyBoard wants to always mimic one of the Instruments (Voice) of the Staffs that's playing.

I had chose another Tune that was a Church Oragan and I didn't realize it until 1/2 hr later that the KeyBoard was now staying a church Oragan. Exactly the same one the Staff was playing.

I had earlier tried to set all Staffs (of tune with Paino) to some random instrument (no Pianos) but the KeyBoard still tayed Piano (01). But when I brought up a tune that had no Piano and only organ, I got Organ on the KeyBoard immediately.

This is an amazingly powerful way to learn.

My goal is just to learn basic accompaniment (typically reserved for left hand) but I'll use both hands.

My main instrument is fiddle. But this sure is fun. Perfect intonation, kind of depressing actually, compared to how much work it is to get a nice tone out of fiddle even after 4.5 years. Ugh.

[mswlogo]

LoopBe1 MIDI Feedback Errors are back.

The reason it worked is tune dependent.

I went back to the first tune I was playing with and MIDI Feedback errors immediately returned.

I tried deleting some of the Staffs that were already muted and it would go longer before getting feedback, but still eventually fail.

Then I pruned it down to 1 staff and it still got feedback after a while.

I attached the two tunes.

Angeline the Baker.Not will immediately get MIDI Feedback Error

Music for a Found Harmonium.Not will play fine.

[Sherry C]

Hi,

If you're using LoopBe30, try turning off the "detect MIDI feedback loop." There are some files that apparently trigger a bug (being fixed for the next release) in Composer by sending out multiple MIDI cc commands, which tricks LoopBe into thinking there is a feedback loop when really there isn't.

You mentioned earlier that you'd tried this and it worked. I'm pretty sure this is the issue, and the workaround for you.

ttfn,
Sherry

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Sherry C

Hi,

If you're using LoopBe30, try turning off the "detect MIDI feedback loop." There are some files that apparently trigger a bug (being fixed for the next release) in Composer by sending out multiple MIDI cc commands, which tricks LoopBe into thinking there is a feedback loop when really there isn't.

You mentioned earlier that you'd tried this and it worked. I'm pretty sure this is the issue, and the workaround for you.

ttfn,
Sherry

Yes, LoopBe30 worked but I was curious if I had something setup wrong and tried LoopBe1 again. I also thought it wouldn't hurt being free as well if it worked

[mswlogo]

Buying LoopBe30 has been totally worth it. I'm now using 4 Connections

After this Forum hooked me on Hooking up Notation to other DAW's I decided to shop around a bit.

I ended up buying Reason 6.5 and a Novation SL MK-II 49 KeyBoard and I'm just blown away by the instruments in Reason. The Organ's and Piano's are awesome.

I've decided to learn a little bit of KeyBoard to broaden my Musical understanding. It's helping a ton.

I've tried VST's before and I tried it again this time around and I'm never satisfied with the bang for buck on one instrument. Reason has like 6 Piano's I like (each can be tweaked to death) and I like 6 Organ's.

I sure hope Notation Composer has some subsequent releases.

[Sherry C]

Hi,

Virtual instruments can be a ton of fun, especially when you can get great sounds for instruments that you can't play (yet ) or don't have access to the physical thing. Glad you're enjoying it!

As for subsequent releases, there are good things on the horizon

ttfn,
Sherry

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Where are the available MIDI Devices to mapped Stored or "Cached".

In the Setup - > MIDI Setup... -> Port -> Select Ports...

I have a boat load of devices that no longer exist.

I've uninstalled, unplugged etc. everything but Notation Keeps them cached somewhere.

I'd like to clean this list up.

[Sherry C]

Hi,

There is currently not a way to remove this information, but we're working to make that an option.

ttfn,
Sherry

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Sherry C

Hi,

There is currently not a way to remove this information, but we're working to make that an option.

ttfn,
Sherry

I thought perhaps this was buried in the registry or in C:\Windows\INF and you didn't want to delve into that (which I perfectly understand). But once I found it, which was no easy task, it's pretty easy and harmless to "Reset" Notation Composer's "MIDI Device Cache".

Just Delete C:\Users\Public\Documents\Notation\Composer\MidiDe v.cfg (this is on Window 7 it will be in different location on XP, search for it)

I had real mess trying different MIDI Virtual cables, and a few Keyboards.

By the way I did manually remove a couple drivers from C:\Windows\INF and that may have helped not re-find some of them. You have to know what you doing if you go into C:\Windows\INF but I'm not sure if that was required.

I don't consider this a bug or a problem and I like the way Notation Composer deals with MIDI devices that come and go.

Your support has been nothing but superb.

EDIT: I just cleaned my laptop and all you need to do is delete the MidiDev.cfg file no need to touch the C:\Windows\INF folder.

[Sherry C]

Hi George,

Thanks for the user tip - I'm sure others will appreciate it

ttfn,
Sherry

[stormproof1]

Hi, not visited for a while, but I've started again.
So now I'm running W7 on an iMac.

Same controller keyboard just a basic 4 octave.

I've tried playing with Loopbe1 but I don't have enough basic knowledge to make sense of it and I get stuck.
I've installed ASIO4ALL which worked without any fuss with my old XP machine but it doesn't seem to be recognised.

So I've re-set Setup Configuration with output to MS GS Wavetable software synth, and the latency is there, too much to be able to record piano in time with the metronome.

Can you walk me through doing some adjustments whereby the latency is less?

Very many thanks.

[Sherry C]

Hi,

The latency is totally due to the GS Wavetable.

For the LoopBe, it's really just a "virtual" cable that connects Composer to a MIDI device. The signal chain looks like:

Composer -> LoopBe -> MIDI Device

So if you don't have a device for LoopBe to connect with, it won't make any difference for you.

To get some nice sounds inexpensively (and without the latency), please see this step-by-step tutorial video on SynthFont. There are other synths that can work this way as well - I just haven't tested them all (Maybe other folks have suggestions for this?)

Also, be sure to turn off the GS Wavetable (it interferes with ASIO):

1. Settings/MIDI Devices configuration
2. Port/Select Ports
3. UNcheck the GS Wavetable, and click Ok to save and exit.

ttfn,
Sherry

[stormproof1]

I'm stuck

In Notation Composer I have this;

And in Synthfont I have this;

I play the MIDI keyboard and it registers I'm playing within Notation Composer.

Synthfont tells me to use the MIDI out button in Plug and Play to select LoopBe, but I can't see one.

Any ideas? I'm feeling old.

[stormproof1]

Having browsed the other threads, I came across your post on reducing latency using ASIO4ALL. I had missed the vital step of making LoopBe (not my MIDI controller keyboard) the input device. Works fine now. Many thanks!

[Sherry C]

Hi,

Glad you were able to get things going!

Happy music making
Sherry