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Using Notation Software products with other (third party) products Find out from others, or share your experience, about integrating Notation Software products with sound libraries, audio processing software, and other hardware and software products.

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  #1  
Old 03-08-2010, 01:45 PM
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Sherry C Sherry C is offline
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Lightbulb Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Friends,

I had a query at the helpdesk today about using soundfonts to get better sounds. The following is an expansion on my response. I hope you find it helpful if you're looking for better sound than the GS Wavetable, but don't have a sound library or other synthesizer options.

----------------------------
We have a page at http://www.notation.com/Articles-Soundfonts.php that gives "the long version". Lots of information to help you understand soundfonts and how they work.

If you have a sound card that is able to load soundfonts, that makes things a little easier. You can use the free soundfonts that you find from the links on our Soundfont Resources page, and just load them into your soundcard.

If your sound card is not capable of loading soundfonts, then the "short and simple" version would be you can use Notation Composer along with a program called SynthFont. SynthFont is available free, but then has a "nag" screen asking if you'd like to donate. I see at the home page at www.synthfont.com that Kenneth Rundt (the developer) is still running a sale for € 15 via PayPal (you can also use credit card).

Here's the step-by-step version for what you do:

1. Install SynthFont (see link above)

2. Install a virtual MIDI cable for connecting SynthFont to Composer. I use LoopBe1, which is available free at http://www.nerds.de/en/download.html and works on all Windows through Windows 7.

3. Run SynthFont, and use the "File/Set Default Soundfont" command to set a default General MIDI soundfont (see our page at http://www.notation.com/Articles-Soundfonts.php for lots of free soundfont resources). There are lots of really nice ones available.

4. Run Composer (in that order - after first starting SynthFont).

5. In Composer, go to Setup/MIDI Device Configuration, and click on "Port/Select Ports".

6. On the left, Uncheck "LoopBe", and on the right, Uncheck Microsoft GS Wavetable.

7. Click "Ok." (At this point the LoopBe might show a "feedback loop!" warning. Just right-click it, and uncheck the Mute box.)

8. In SynthFont, click the "Activate Midi Input". This then allows SynthFont to be the "sound source", and Composer to be the "player".

After this all you need to do is be sure to run SynthFont before you run Composer. You can then load the soundfont(s) that you want in SynthFont for the corresponding channel assignments of each staff in Composer, and there you go

You can also use SynthFont for directly "rendering" a MIDI file to an audio file, in case you want to listen to the song elsewhere. All you would need to do is to use File/Export MIDI in Composer to get the .mid file for SynthFont to use. In SynthFont, you then click "Play to File" to save the audio rendition, which you can then burn to audio CD.

There are a lot of free soundfonts available as you can see on our Resource page. If you find that any of those links don't work, please do let me know so that I can fix them.
------------------------------------

If there is any interest, I can put together a quicky video tutorial about using these together.

Enjoy
Sherry
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Last edited by Reinhold H.; 01-23-2016 at 06:05 AM. Reason: RH 2016/01/23: changed htm link to php link
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  #2  
Old 03-08-2010, 10:51 PM
fremowolf
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hello Sherry, yes, I am a newbie here and in sounds, since with my ears I could never hear more than 3 kHz, and when this even degraded to 1 kHz over the last 15 years I was lost to music. Now with a new Cochlear Implant I can hear up to 8 kHz, so music makes sense again. In our aging society this problem - while generally less extreme - is quite common. Thus I thought to use MidiNotate to learn "hearing by composing" and by listening to MIDI-music and comparing the sounds with what I see. If the music is too fast, I can slow it down, and if the sounds are too terrible, I can look for better sounds. I am just beginning to understand how to use better sounds. General Midi is horrible - even for me.

My main objection to most help-files is : For the beginner they are too general. What is needed is a simple "how to" method : Most people have either a Microsoft Windows (XP, Vista, Win7) OS, or something from Apple. And there are only two or three typical sound-cards around. So if you would write a little booklet (online and expandable over time) on "what to do" about sounds - every single step in the "monkey see - monkey do" way, this would be helpful for both sides, since if something does not work, the users could tell you exactly at what point they encountered a difficulty. All general advice leaves the incompetent reader helpless with "what does Sherry speak of here ?". If readers got encouraged by some simple success ("ah, now I hear the new sound for the first time !"), the next steps will be easy.

So assume that I have MidiNotate available, and a soundcard with a GM bank too, and I want to tell my soundcard how to use new soundfonts in the *.wav-format. Where should I put the soundfonts so that the card can find and use them ? This is what I call the "monkey see - monkey do" way.

F.i., you wrote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherry C View Post
You can use the free soundfonts that you find from the links on our Soundfont Resources page, and just load them into your soundcard.
But what does "just load them into your soundcard" mean ? There is "start > settings > system controls > sound and media > soundcard etc., an then what to do ? Or there is a file "programs" on the systems-partition where to drop the new sounds in the soundcard subfolder ?

As you see, it is not at all clear for the layperson what to do - while it may be obvious for you !

Last edited by fremowolf; 03-08-2010 at 11:09 PM.
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  #3  
Old 03-11-2010, 03:30 PM
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Sherry C Sherry C is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Howdy,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fremowolf View Post
So if you would write a little booklet (online and expandable over time) on "what to do" about sounds - every single step in the "monkey see - monkey do" way, this would be helpful for both sides, since if something does not work, the users could tell you exactly at what point they encountered a difficulty. All general advice leaves the incompetent reader helpless with "what does Sherry speak of here ?". If readers got encouraged by some simple success ("ah, now I hear the new sound for the first time !"), the next steps will be easy.
Alas, I wish it were that easy Part of the problem lies in the "this sound setup does all the same steps as that one except these two steps here." In the Help/Users Guide we have tried to cover a lot, but no two system configurations will all be exactly the same. Different operating systems, different sound cards or other sound devices, and the various combinations thereof, keep us on our toes for helping folks get it to all work together. I'm learning something new every day The Users Guide does cover step-by-step for all the Windows and Musician/Composer parts, but there is simply no way we could cover everyone's set up in a step-by-step fashion. That's one reason we have the Users Forum here so folks can help each other out for the various devices that are in use.

Quote:
So assume that I have MidiNotate available, and a soundcard with a GM bank too, and I want to tell my soundcard how to use new soundfonts in the *.wav-format. Where should I put the soundfonts so that the card can find and use them ? This is what I call the "monkey see - monkey do" way.
Only some soundcards by a few makers will load soundfonts. If you have such a soundcard, you should be able to find the Soundfont Manager within the program folder for your soundcard. For example, if you have a SoundBlaster card that is capable of loading soundfonts, then you should be able to:
1. Click the "Start" button in the lower left of Windows
2. Select "All programs"
3. Find the "Creative" folder,
4. Find the "Soundfont manager" within that folder.
In the Soundfont Manager will be some method for "loading banks". At that point, you navigate to where you have your soundfonts stored (I keep mine in a separate folder, where I've now (finally) got them categorized) and load the soundfont you want in that particular bank.

I no longer have the old SoundBlaster Audigy 2 installed in my machine, so I can't give a 1-2-3 step sequence here for that, unfortunately.

Maybe someone else has one active, though, and could do that?

ttfn,
Sherry
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  #4  
Old 03-11-2010, 08:39 PM
fremowolf
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Thank you very much for the detailed answer, Cherry ! Well, as a **** rookie I may be a bit naive still. I am surprised that there is so much left to learn !

Yesterevening I tried out some very simple procedures : Using Notation Composer to change the tempi of the movements of a MIDI version of Mozart KV 576 piano sonata and then playing this modified version with SynthFont. In this case no problem : Export MIDI from Composer, then open MIDI with SynthFont. Seems to work fine, while there were many disturbing and unexpected effects to overcome. F.i., there is a delay of some seconds when you take up the replay in Notation Composer somewhere in the middle. Only when you start at the beginning of a piece the opening is as it should be. Thus after any break the playback should be held back until the setup is ready. This is a minor glitch of the Composer software to be corrected. Thus I am crawling along. Seems there is no short track for anybody.

And I have a remark to add on this forum : There are some answers of you to other participants that are of interest for me. But to get back at those answers I have to write down the details. It would be much easier to save the date and time of some entry and using this to get back to the point of interest next time. F.i. your original posting starting this thread was of "03-08-2010 02:45 PM". But I can't use it to get back at this, I have to know where to go. When the number of entries on this forum expands, it becomes more and more difficult to find the way back to some posting of interest. Could this be changed ? It is almost impossible to have two entries with exactly the same date and time, so it is a pretty sure method to find some posting later on.

Cheers from Hubertus
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  #5  
Old 03-13-2010, 04:19 PM
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Sherry C Sherry C is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Hubertus,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fremowolf View Post
Yesterevening I tried out some very simple procedures : Using Notation Composer to change the tempi of the movements of a MIDI version of Mozart KV 576 piano sonata and then playing this modified version with SynthFont. In this case no problem : Export MIDI from Composer, then open MIDI with SynthFont.
Actually you can use the two together. SynthFont has an option to "Activate MIDI Input." If you click that button, and run Composer, then SynthFont acts as the MIDI playback device, while you edit or play the score in Composer. It's a lot easier that way, as you get immediate feedback on what your changes will sound like. If you like what you hear and want to make an audio file, just (1) use the File/Export as MIDI command in Composer, save the .mid version of your file, (2) open that .mid file in SynthFont, and then (3) use SynthFont's "Play to File" command to get a clean "rendering" of the file to audio.

Quote:
It would be much easier to save the date and time of some entry and using this to get back to the point of interest next time. F.i. your original posting starting this thread was of "03-08-2010 02:45 PM". But I can't use it to get back at this, I have to know where to go.
I'll have to take a deeper look at the forum software to see if I can do that.

However, there is an easy way to keep track of specific posts if you want them for reference. I use this method a lot, because I keep track of suggestions for improvements to or problems with the software that get reported here in the forum.
1. You can use Windows' Notepad (under Start/ All programs/Accessories/Notepad, or your favorite text or document editor) to create a document for "Posts I want to reference".

2. When you find a post you want to remember, find the little Post Number (eg. #4) in the upper right corner of the dark blue bar across the top of the post.

3. Right-click on that number, and your browser should bring up a menu that will contain the option to "Copy link location" (Firefox) or "Copy shortcut" (Internet Explorer). Click on that option.

4. Now go back to Notepad (or other editor) and click in the document where you want to paste in that link.

5. Press "Ctrl + V" to paste the link (url) to that particular post in your "Posts I want to reference" document.
Now when you want to go back to those posts, you'll have the exact link to that post. How cool is that?

Enjoy
Sherry
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  #6  
Old 03-13-2010, 04:39 PM
fremowolf
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Sherry, thank you once more for your helpful answers. I will try it out. So many things to learn ! In my youth there was a piano and you got a chair to sit on and then started playing. No more ! It is like using Visual Basic : Once you had Quickbasic and just started programming and after one hour you had wonderful results. With Visual Basic after one hour you have no results whatever but a nervous breakdown, because you still don't understand what is happening. This is "progress". But "we will overcome someday". Listen to Joan Baez.

I just made a test with linking to your post : Great ! Using OpenOffice 3 and *.rtf-format, the link to your entry was activated automatically by ctrl + mouseclick, and I was back there. Good idea ! Instead of trying to modify the program of this forum, just give this advice to newcomers on a "greetings-page".

To get out of the way of this forum, while making use of advice, you even can "save the whole page" as *.html instead of only the link-address. Works fine !

Last edited by fremowolf; 03-13-2010 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 03-13-2010, 03:41 PM
djimtio djimtio is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Sherry
Just an addendum,if I may do so.
People interrested in getting good sounds inexpensively might also want to consider upgrading the miserable built in soundcarts on their PC or laptops with an external soundcard like Soundblaster Live External,using soundfonts, or the Terratec Aureon USB in combination with Synthfont ,Roland GS dxi and others.
Prices are around USD 50,00 and may be still available on Amazon or even cheaper on E bay.
I have been using both,on my PC and laptop,for quite some time now in combination with Composer of course.

Regards

Djim
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Old 03-13-2010, 04:25 PM
fremowolf
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Djim, thank you for the valuable hint ! I am just starting as a rookie, so I will see what can be done with my inbuilt "Creative SB0220 SB Live !" and using soundbanks and "Vienna". Only then I will go on for other possibilities as those you hinted at.

My principle is : Leave things as small and simple as possible. No external things - cards and keyboards etc. - added as long as you don't feel that you gain a lot from it. But I will remember your suggestion. This moment even Audacity, Papelmedia, and Timidity are no more than words for me, I have to understand them.
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Old 03-13-2010, 05:15 PM
djimtio djimtio is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Fremowolf

Relatively cheaper external soundcards are only an option for those who are not so fortunate as to have a nice built in soundcard,of course.
You should do fine with your SB.
Success

Regards

Djim
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  #10  
Old 03-14-2010, 06:12 AM
mgj32 mgj32 is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Sherry,
This is very interesting : "SynthFont has an option to "Activate MIDI Input." If you click that button, and run Composer, then SynthFont acts as the MIDI playback device, while you edit or play the score in Composer. It's a lot easier that way, as you get immediate feedback on what your changes will sound like."

I'm afraid the answer to the question that raises will be no, but I'll ask it anyhow. If Synthfont acts as the midi playback device, and Synthfont can handle 32 channels, is using Synthfont as the playback device a round-about way of enabling Composer to handle 32 channels?

Please say yes.

all best,
mgj
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  #11  
Old 06-30-2011, 05:51 AM
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Sherry C Sherry C is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi MG,

Don't know how this slipped under the radar, but it did:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgj32 View Post
If Synthfont acts as the midi playback device, and Synthfont can handle 32 channels, is using Synthfont as the playback device a round-about way of enabling Composer to handle 32 channels?

Please say yes.
Sorry, but I think it's "no", because the MIDI standard is that any device only handles 16 channels per instance. If you can get SynthFont to come up as two separate devices, then you can route 16 channels per device. I don't think you can do that directly, but you can use multiple instances of the SynthFont VSTi in something like VST Host (see other forum posts for that), and then get all the multiples of 16 that your computer can handle.

ttfn,
Sherry
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Old 05-14-2011, 02:42 AM
keyboard_bob
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Sherry,

I am a new Composer user. Is there a way to get better playback sounds with Composer? When playing the same midi file with Composer vs. Finale Notepad, the music sounds richer and fuller with Notepad than it does with Composer. I don't think this is a matter of soundfonts, since everything else is the same but the program used to play back the midi file. I am not interested in playing the file back with different software - I want to watch the notes scroll by with Composer as I hear the playback, particularly since Composer has such an excellent transcription of the music.

Thanks,
Bob
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Old 05-14-2011, 02:50 AM
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Sherry C Sherry C is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Bob,

Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard_bob View Post
I am a new Composer user. Is there a way to get better playback sounds with Composer? When playing the same midi file with Composer vs. Finale Notepad, the music sounds richer and fuller with Notepad than it does with Composer. I don't think this is a matter of soundfonts, since everything else is the same but the program used to play back the midi file. I am not interested in playing the file back with different software - I want to watch the notes scroll by with Composer as I hear the playback, particularly since Composer has such an excellent transcription of the music.

Thanks,
Bob
Actually Finale has it's own internal (and proprietary) soundfont set and audio engine, so the difference you're hearing is indeed between a soundfont (Finale's) versus your computer using the generic GS Wavetable (Notation's default), which is included in all Windows machines. The bonus for using Composer, though, is that you can easily use any MIDI device for playback, so it can be as good as you can afford

One of the easiest ways to incorporate soundfonts into your setup is that listed below regarding SynthFont (www.synthfont.com - free/donation).
Please also see the other information that I referred to - there's a lot there and hopefully something will prove helpful

ttfn,
Sherry
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:06 PM
Krypton17 Krypton17 is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherry C View Post
Hi Bob,



Actually Finale has it's own internal (and proprietary) soundfont set and audio engine, so the difference you're hearing is indeed between a soundfont (Finale's) versus your computer using the generic GS Wavetable (Notation's default), which is included in all Windows machines. The bonus for using Composer, though, is that you can easily use any MIDI device for playback, so it can be as good as you can afford

One of the easiest ways to incorporate soundfonts into your setup is that listed below regarding SynthFont (www.synthfont.com - free/donation).
Please also see the other information that I referred to - there's a lot there and hopefully something will prove helpful

ttfn,
Sherry

I'm new to this as well. Does it matter which sound font or program I use when converting midi to mp3? I convert my midi to mp3 so I can plug my usb into my stereo system for playing along since those speakers are much better than my laptop. I have a free midi to mp3 convertor program and finale make music. I don't see an export to mp3 option in my Composer software. Does SynthFont have option to convert to mp3? I do seem to notice that playing the midi file though my yamaha keyboard sounds better than off the stereo mp3 files, but alas the yahama only holds about 8 songs at a time.

Best,

Mike
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:41 PM
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Sherry C Sherry C is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Hi Mike,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton17 View Post
I'm new to this as well. Does it matter which sound font or program I use when converting midi to mp3?
You could think of the difference in soundfonts and other sound sources (eg. synths, sound libraries, etc.) this way. Let's say you have the sheet music for Beethoven's Fifth. You take that sheet music and give it to your local elementary school for their fifth and sixth grade band to play. It may sound ok, but it's no great shakes. You then take the same sheet music to your local high school band. Sounds better. Take the same sheets to the local symphony orchestra (we're talking the folks with day jobs) and it sounds lots better. Now take the same sheets to the nearest professional orchestra (eg. paid to play always musicians) and it will sound fantastic. They were all playing from the same sheets, but the difference in sound quality is tremendous

In the above analogy, the sheet music is like the .not file in our software (or the .mid that you can export). The GS Wavetable is like the local elementary band - it gets the relative sounds out, but typically sounds more mechanical, lower quality, and no timbre changes and so forth. Soundfonts (aka, the high school/local symphony) can vary in quality of the sounds and "tweaking" capability (eg. whether you can add some "breath" to wind instruments or not, plucking noise for guitars, etc.) Really good libraries, like EastWest or Garritan (aka, the pro symphony), allow you to add a lot of nuances to the performance to bring it more life-like during playback.

Quote:
I convert my midi to mp3 so I can plug my usb into my stereo system for playing along since those speakers are much better than my laptop. I have a free midi to mp3 convertor program and finale make music.
Most free MIDI-to-mp3 converters use either the GS Wavetable or their own soundfont, which isn't typically a very high quality one.
[QUOTE} I don't see an export to mp3 option in my Composer software. [/QUOTE} It's not there - yet
Quote:
Does SynthFont have option to convert to mp3?
Yes - Kenneth explains what you'll need to do to set up mp3 conversion for free on your computer on his website (www.synthfont.com)
Quote:
I do seem to notice that playing the midi file though my yamaha keyboard sounds better than off the stereo mp3 files, but alas the yahama only holds about 8 songs at a time.
It might be worth checking to see if your Yamaha will record a wav file for you of what it plays. You may be able to put that on a memory stick or disk to then convert to mp3 using a free wav - to - mp3 program.

ttfn,
Sherry
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:13 PM
Krypton17 Krypton17 is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Quote:
Originally Posted by sherry c View Post
hi mike,

sherry,

thank you for the quick and informative reply. I have enjoyed playing along with the elementary band but will try to step it up a level or two

while i have you what is the difference between using a midi and a .not file? And xml is a whole other format as well? I imagine there advantages and disadvantages to each. My latest challenge is getting the repeats into the midis i don't print 5 pages for a part. I assume i'll find that soon. Just cut and insert repeat bars somehow? I have not seen any repeats in any of the midis i've downloaded.

Mike





you could think of the difference in soundfonts and other sound sources (eg. Synths, sound libraries, etc.) this way. Let's say you have the sheet music for beethoven's fifth. You take that sheet music and give it to your local elementary school for their fifth and sixth grade band to play. It may sound ok, but it's no great shakes. You then take the same sheet music to your local high school band. Sounds better. Take the same sheets to the local symphony orchestra (we're talking the folks with day jobs) and it sounds lots better. Now take the same sheets to the nearest professional orchestra (eg. Paid to play always musicians) and it will sound fantastic. They were all playing from the same sheets, but the difference in sound quality is tremendous

in the above analogy, the sheet music is like the .not file in our software (or the .mid that you can export). The gs wavetable is like the local elementary band - it gets the relative sounds out, but typically sounds more mechanical, lower quality, and no timbre changes and so forth. Soundfonts (aka, the high school/local symphony) can vary in quality of the sounds and "tweaking" capability (eg. Whether you can add some "breath" to wind instruments or not, plucking noise for guitars, etc.) really good libraries, like eastwest or garritan (aka, the pro symphony), allow you to add a lot of nuances to the performance to bring it more life-like during playback.

Most free midi-to-mp3 converters use either the gs wavetable or their own soundfont, which isn't typically a very high quality one.
[quote} i don't see an export to mp3 option in my composer software. [/quote} it's not there - yet
yes - kenneth explains what you'll need to do to set up mp3 conversion for free on your computer on his website (www.synthfont.com)
it might be worth checking to see if your yamaha will record a wav file for you of what it plays. You may be able to put that on a memory stick or disk to then convert to mp3 using a free wav - to - mp3 program.

Ttfn,
sherry
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:37 AM
Krypton17 Krypton17 is offline
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Default Re: Getting better sounds inexpensively

Sherry,

WHOO-HOO I got it running and the music sounds great!!! Your videos were ideal. I never could have put together all these pieces. I was able to download Synthfont along with Viena (found out I don't even have a Creative SB card that can load soundfonts), downloaded Loopbe1, downloaded ASIO4all, and downloaded a bunch of soundfonts to try out. Playing the Notation score through Synthfont worked great, easy to switch among a variety of tenor saxes I tried. Only thing I wish was that the instrument track names would transfer over to synthfont when I switched songs in Composer. Maybe I'm missing an option? The real clincher is Sythfont lets me export as Flac!! to put on the USB and play either on my home theater system or my Sandisk portable player. The Flacs take up more room than mp3s but don't lose anything during compression. So can take that orchestra home with me now!

Thanks again, I'm sure I'll be back for more advice.

Mike
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