Sound card problem

Hi Mark,

I have 256MB, twice the minimum, so I was rather surprised at the problem. I will be answering Creative tonight, as they asked me to let them know if their solution and the back up solution, in case the first didn't work. Also have Pentium IV, while minimum is two.

I found that the .not files played back and could be edited normally with the SF memory set at 55MB, using the default 4MB bank, which is shown as loaded for both Synth A and B, but I'm assuming they use the same one, so there are not eight MB loaded.

When I tried to use a 28MB bank for a and the default for B, I could not set the SF memory high enough to prevent--you know what. Yep, crashes, and even wav and mp3 crashes.

So the saga continues. Won't even get started on the mess I got into all day, trying to get rid of all Audigy 2 so I could install the old card. Wound up having to install all components individually because the installation disk wouldn't give me a complete install option. It was great fun.

all best,
mgj

Hi Mark,

It's been a long night, day and night again. You may have been right a bout "soundfonts" being involved, if you mean any bank other than what is there when you open SFBM for the first time. I began to get crashes again after loading a bank with quite a number of instruments I like better than GM ones. It is about 29MB. It did not matter what I set the SBFM memory allocation to, anywhere from 45MB to 175MB, the upper limit.

Worse, I re-loaded the default bank. At least, since when I clicked on replace to load the 28MB bank, I was in Win Sys32/Drivers. So I loaded the 4MB bank I found there. It made no difference. Whatever I did with memory allocation, I got a crash, with .not, with midi, with mp3, with wav files, in whatever program I used to play them.

I decided that I would uninstall and reinstall again. For a reason I still don't kow, however, the procedure didn't work this time, possibly because Creative Media Source wasn't in add/remove? Or maybe because I was too punchy and did something out of order. Anyhow, I got into a situation where the uninstaller would get to 58% then tell me that some "subscribers could not be invoked" and that the process would terminate and close. I cleaned the registry after deleting the relevant directories by hand. No the installer gave me not complete install option and when I tried repair or modify, I was informed of those shadowy "subscribers" again. (What kinds of idiots think such undefined terms are going to make any sense to the average user?)

To make a very long story short, I finally seem to have got what I needed zapped, using a program called Windows Uninstall Cleaner, which came from I have no idea where, to get rid of Media Source and SB Audigy, which I had installed from the web driver update, and the WDM drivers, for which there is a separate install/uninstall program on the Creative installation disk.

I still couldn't use this disk to install, but I apparently got enough on there to be able to install the mixer, graphic eq, eax, etc., etc., by going to their directories and using the setup.exe I found in each.
This was after installing the Windows Driver web update. Last, I got and installed everything on the auto-update page. I figured that perhaps the more I had on there, the more chance I could get everything uninstalled, yet leaving those "subscribers" lurking somewhere in a Windows sub-directory or the registry, or wherever they ply their trade. Due to a mistaken click, I have older drivers (from the installation CD) there were on the machine before, unless they were included with the web update.

Ready to zap everything and get the old and unsatisfactory, but non-crashng card back in place, I gave it one last fling--I had to set enable the services and restart, anyhow.

I have restarted since then, but I have also been playing wav, mp3 files, a CD of the "Archduke" Trio, the midi file of the "Chrismas" Symphony (of which I recorded as I played it, the 4th movement). I have done nothing in SFBM, other than set the memory allocation to 30MB, leaving dynamic cache as the option.

I do have noise--like static, with usually wide, ir-regular spaces between the pops. I am a little afraid of playing with SFBM. Who wants another nightmare so soon after waking up? And I'm very much afraid to trying any soundfonts other than those there now, even if so far, I have been able to play anything, including midi files, with Thunderbird open and of course this browser. I will wait until doing anything more until I get the next response from Creative.

I sure hope nobody else has anything like this, and am surprised that I couldn't find anything described in exactly the same way on the Creative forum. Most people, though, might simply write their tech support, as I did. It will be very interesting to hear what they have to say this time.

best,
mgj

Howdy MG,

I've been a bit out of the loop lately - we had our Christmas music program at church last night, though, so I'm a bit more sane now

All this talk of physical memory brings a vague recollection from the mist...

When I was looking at getting my new machine a couple of years ago, and looking around for soundfont info, I remember somewhere reading that due to memory requirements of Windows XP, added to the memory requirements of the SB Audigy cards using soundfonts, that people who were using soundfonts recommended having at least 512 Mb of physical memory. So when I ordered my machine, that's what I ordered it with (256 Mb was the new "standard issue" at that time). I've never had any basic issues with popping and clicking with MIDI playback using soundfonts on my SB Audigy 2. I've since upgraded my memory to 1.5 Gb because of GPO, and I can have a boat load of soundfonts loaded and running.

I know you said you've checked the memory usage, and it appears to be safe, but I just really wonder if there are other "issues" involved with the memory that aren't necessarily displayed by the Windows utility. Perhaps others who are more computer proficient than myself could answer that one.

I *think* I may have seen the bit of advice about the amount of memory on the PG Music forum - that's where I first found out about soundfonts. I don't have a clue where it would be on the forum, though, because it's been so long ago. You could probably search their forum using "soundfonts, memory" or some such if you're so inclined.

It will also be intriguing to hear what the Creative folk have to say.

ttfn,
Sherry

Hi Mark and Sherry,

Thanks, Sherry, that's another place to look. I sincerely hope it's not more physical ram I need since 1. I have more than Creative requires. Probably the recommended amount, since it's twice the required figure. 2. For about twice what Dell wants to bring it up to 512MB (over $300), I could get a whole computer with that much, twice my HD size, a faster processor, and a flat panel display.

Mark, not only, as I described above, was everything working fine last night, except for the pops, but I had plenty of memory to do other things--a browser and mail program were open. I went on to do some editing in Composer, and things were working faster there. Don't know what that means, unfortunately.

I'm back to square one, now, with instant crashes. The only thing I did was try to load Acoustica (and somewhat enhanced Audacity). It was working fine before all this. But I got a message that it had to close with a Close and a Debug button and place to click to see what the error report would include. I tried all three. Nothing worked, so I un-installed and re-installed. Got the reg key entry page, entered it and it tried to load. The splash screen was behind the must close message. Oh, and error reporting somehow got disabled--a passing cosmic ray, no doubt. I set it on manual because I've never had to set it before, and thought I'd try that first. Grrrr.

Tried playing the same things I had played before, and crash, crash, crash. Uninstalled Acoustica, but crash, crash, crash.

SBFM was left as I had set it.

The computer is still responding faster than ever.

Perhaps SBFM memeory allocation was just another sympton?

all best,
mgj

Hi Sherry and Mark,

I just found this in SBFM HELP. It seems pertinent, but I'm not exactly sure how because it doesn't relaly explain why the crashes with the default 4MB bank loaded. I'm in deep enough now. I wonder if this is worth a try? Any comments?

best,
mgj

For large banks in Windows 2000/XP:

When trying to load a large SoundFont bank, some users may encounter an error message. Click the OK button.

When loading a large bank, you will need to modify your operating system's registry settings to alter the set memory limit. This can, however, alter your operating system's performance. Remember to make a copy of your system's registry settings before proceeding.

Using Windows Explorer, search and locate the Windows folder.

Double-click the regedit.exe file. The Registry Editor window appears.

On the left panel, search and locate the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\Session Manager\Memory Management\ folder.

On the right panel, double-click the PagedPoolSize file. The Edit DWORD Value dialog box appears.

In the Value data: box, type 0xFFFFFFFF, and then click the OK button.

Restart your computer.

Launch Creative SoundFont Bank Manager, and then click the Bank button .
The Configure Bank dialog box appears.

Click the Select Bank drop-down button , and select a bank location to configure.

Click the Load button to add a SoundFont bank to an empty or occupied location.

If the desired space already contains a bank, and you want to load a new bank in its place, highlight the bank and click the Replace button .

If you want to remove a bank, highlight the bank and click the Remove button

Click the OK button to finish configuring your banks.

Notes

Do not alter your operating system's registry settings unless you need to load a large bank.
If you still cannot load a large bank after altering your system's registry setting, you may need to increase the SoundFont Cache memory limit. From the main interface, click the Midi Devices button . The MIDI Devices Option dialog box appears. Drag the SoundFont Cache slider to the right to increase the SoundFont Cache memory limit.
Alternatively, increase your system's memory by adding more RAM.

Hello M.G.,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"When loading a large bank, you will need to modify your operating system's registry settings to alter the set memory limit. This can, however, alter your operating system's performance. Remember to make a copy of your system's registry settings before proceeding."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I think this warning is a good clue that you might want not to venture into this.

Taking a step back from all of this, I overall have the impression that you have spent 10s of hours struggling with various problems, installing and uninstalling this and that, changing params here and there. Sometimes this kind of activity leads to success. A lot of times this kind of messing around with a system can just make the system worse and worse. I've seen this happen to so many systems. I used to do it to my own systems to the point that my system got so messed up that I finally have to clean up my own mess by reformatting the hard drive, re-installed Windows, and then re-installed everything else. I've done that about a half dozen times in my life-time. My daughter's boy friend does this every couple of weeks, for heaven knows what reasons other than that he just enjoys doing this sort of thing. I don't enjoy it. So, instead, I avoid as much as possible messing around with my system unless I really have a good reason to, and unless I know what I'm doing, and am prepared to back out my changes.

I suspect that your system might be "ill". I'm hesitant to recommend this, because it's so much work, but you might want to consider just starting all over. Save all of your data files (such as MidiNotate .not files!) Reformat your hard drive, and start all over with a clean system. It can do wonders.

Or get a new system, and transfer your data files over to it.

Cheers
-- Mark

P.S. The above suggestion for starting with a new system is rather drastic advice. Sherry and others can probably offer more economical solutions (in terms of labor or dollars).

Cheers
-- Mark

Mark,

PS to the above. Does it sound to you as if should I do as much of an un-install of the sound card as Windows will do (remember it was stopping short of doing the whole thing) and delete the registry key support suggests, that I would be clean enough to put my old Live Value Dell version card back in? That would be the quickest way to get anything done, perhaps....and it would give me leisure to contemplate what to do next re the new card.

best....

Hi Mark,

Let me bounce this off you . . .

The driver Creative's support guy directed me to is from 2003, somewhat later than the one on the installation disk, I think. The one I got off the web is dated just a month ago.

Could it be that the 2003 update corrects the problem with midi, that I had when I installed the card first, and that the correction is not included in last month's update; further that the 2003 update needs to be there for the current update to function properly, at least as regards midi?

Would this be a reasonable supposition?

For the moment, I have set the default for midi in control panel to Creative's Sw Synth--a very slight improvement over MS Wavetable. Who knows, after long enough, and if I go to no concert or listen to no CD, I might start thinking that the instrumental timbre is a better representation of the real ones and compose with the Sw Synth sounds in mind. (I don't usually laugh aloud when I'm all along, but I just did--had to.)

The fact that Acoustic support asked me to uninstall 3.3 and reinstall 3.2 as a fix for a problem others have reported, suggests that there is a problem with the card's software and IT is making my system sick. So I would guess a wipe and clean install of Windows might well not resolve the issue. Would that be a reasonable assumption?

(Lordie, with the Sw Synth the upper registers of the piano don't sound like MS Wavetable's xylophone. The sound isn't that of a piano, but at least it's an improvement. . . At least I'm listening to a midi file and it has not crashed the computer. Oddly enough, too, my computer is working faster again with that control panel change--at least, it seems odd to me that a change in default midi playback could do that.)

all best,
mgj

Hello M.G.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Could it be that the 2003 update corrects the problem with midi, that I had when I installed the card first, and that the correction is not included in last month's update; further that the 2003 update needs to be there for the current update to function properly, at least as regards midi?

Would this be a reasonable supposition?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>It's worth a try, but I wouldn't guess a high probability of success. Creative's driver download page should point you to the best driver for a given combination of (1) the model of SB card you are using and (2) the version of Windows you are using. That's your best bet.

Cheers
-- Mark

Hi Mark,

Thanks. You confirm what I suspected. I remember (or think I do) that when I upgraded to XP SP2, I read that you don't need to install SP1 first. The same should hold true for the SB 2005 and 2003 drivers.

I'll give the techie's directions a try, on the might be worth it basis. If that doesn't work (and this isn't some intermediate step in a process he's unveiling step by step) I will try to get back to the OEM card, which still has the two synths, but little else to recommend it.

best,
mgj

Hi Mark, Sherry,

To keep this chronicle up to date--

The Creative techie who answered this time said to delete the entire Creative directory as long as I have no other Creative products, before installing the 2003 HD EAX driver.

Interestingly, this step IS part of a process, which this techie detailed further. The next steps include, going into setup and disabling the onboard sound chipset, checking for sharing of IRQ numbers (SB does share 11 with the Linksys ethernet network card and Intel(r) 82801BA/BAM USB Universal Host Controller), and running a Creative system diagonist tool and sending the results as a text file.

It strikes me that the further steps might be those that should be performed first, but I will do things in the order specified, I guess. I am going to do a test now, however: I am going to temporarily diable the network and see if that helps.

best,
mgj

Howdy MG,

Wow! You're in way beyond anything I've ever had to do. I'm learning new things here. Thanks for keeping us posted, and I certainly hope you get this bugger figured out soon!

ttfn,
Sherry

Hi Sherry,

Yep, it's a heck of an adventure for one whose knowledge is pinched enough that yesterday didn't even know what IRQ meant. Windows Help and Support says you shouldn't change them, else you might not be able to install anything else, but I noticed that there were some vacant numbers in the list--or maybe they just don't exist to be filled. . . yep, it's like looking for your glasses in a blackout.

This is something that anyone installing a new sound card might get, or so the impression I'm getting from Creative support goes. I'm afraid it's going to take a rather long time since, possibly because of location?, it takes two days per message to and from Creative; however, I have to assume they know how to fix the problem. Apparently there is a file that either exists somewhere in the Creative directory that one can download and run that diagnoses the system, that you can save as a text file, send to Creative, and will tell them what they need to know to give directions for a fix. I do rather wonder why they didn't just have me do this first.

I miss being able to write music and there is some music that looks interesting, recently posted, that I would like to hear when it is not made to sound by MS Wavetable Synth like the hurdy-gurdy man is going through the village with the monkey leading a cow with a bell around its neck. I could use MSWT to compose, I guess, but getting the best sound out of that (which would be relatively bad) would result in an enormous amount of editing when the A and B Synths are available.

Oh, yes, I mentined that I was going to try disabling the network (Linksys adapter), since it is one of the devices on the same IRQ number as SB. I did. Midi worked for about an hour and a half, though there was still some (but not frequent, for once) static. Perhaps that was coming from the Intel Universal USB host controller, or whatever it's called.

So, there is hope.

best,
mgj

Hi all,

Here is the latest from Creative:

Thanks for the reply. It looks like you are having an IRQ conflict. The
sound card should be having it's own IRQ number.

Below are some steps to check and change the IRQ of the device.

CHECKING AND CHANGING THE IRQ OF YOUR CARD
1. Go to Start > Control Panel > System > Hardware
2. Click on the Device Manager button to open up Device Manager
3. Go to View > Resources by type
4. Open up the IRQ section
5. Find the main listing for the card
6. Check to see what IRQ the card is listed on.
7. Check to see what other devices are listed on the same IRQ number
8. Shut down Windows
9. Power off computer
10. Switch the slot of your card
11. Boot the system, and reinstall the drivers for the card.
12. Repeat steps 1 - 5 to check the current IRQ for the card.
13. Note the IRQ listed now. Has it changed?
14. Check to see what other devices are listed on the same IRQ
15. If the IRQ has not changed, or it is sharing with another device, we
may need to switch slots again. It also might be necessary to reserve
or assign resources in your motherboard BIOS.

Do reply back to me if you are still having problems with any error
messages prompted. Thanks.

For faster service please reply with previous correspondence when
replying to this email.

I have one more slot left, so I'll try that next. Sweeping and re-installing the drivers may be a problem, since the installation CD stopped zapping or installing. But I'll try doing the last step they specified, i.e., deleting the Creative directory and the registry key, then installing the 2003 drivers.

But I have the feeling, having switched slots already, that it "might be necessary to reserve or assign resources" in the motherboard BIOS. This kind of intimidates me.

If I go silent, it's probably that the computer no longer works at all.

best,
mgj

Hi Mark and all,

Can you (can anyone) tell me how to move my sound card from IRQ 3 to IRQ 6 so that is sharing with the floppy disk controller. I very seldom use floppies, so could leave it disabled most of the time. Looks like it's going to have to share with something. Actually, Windows Help tells me how, but the automatic box is grayed out in device manager/audigy/resources. That's the real problem.

best,
mgj

Hello M.G.

Control Panel / System / Hardware / Device Manager / View menu / Resources by Connection / see listing of devices by IRQ / right-lick device / then...
(1) Properties / Resouurces to change IRQ
-- OR --
(2) Disable (if you want to try disabling a conflicting IRQ)

Cheers
-- Mark

Hi,

The saga has not conclusion yet, but an interruption, which will be ultimately beneficial. I hope.

It seems that the techies ran out of ideas and suggested that a return for repair or replacement is in order. Whatever was tried (and I spent more than a week of long hours at it) the result was the same, i.e., all worked but the Synth A and Synth B. Apparently these are hardware synths, whereas MS Wavetable is a software synth. So perhaps the fault is in the card, itself.

For the present, I seem to have got the original SB Live Value configuration re-installed. It is a very stripped down version of Audigy, but it is better than an Audigy that doesn't work.

I await Fed Ex with a replacement (or repair).

Merry Christmas (late) and Happy New Year (on time).

mgj

Hi,
Perhaps the conclusion has finally been reached. Fed Ex arrived and I installed. There was a defect in the card it appears; I played a whole symphonic movement using with Synth A set as the default and the computer didn't crash. I flashed the BIOS, anyhow, since it was an upgrade specifically for my model Dell that shipped after XP Sp2 and had an Audigy card installed.

The only glitch was a muffling in the strings (patch 49 in Composer), but that turned out to be the Musica Theoria strings, which sounded OK with the old card. Other strings work all right.

Hopefully, now I can stop thinking about setup instead of music.

all best,
mgj

Howdy M G,

This is good news indeed!

But we're still naming you "Audigy Soundcard Expert Extraordinaire" ;)

Enjoy making music! (which reminds me of a little project I need to get cracking on )

ttfn,
Sherry

Hi Sherry,

Not an expert by any means, but pretty good at installing a card without defects.

I did learn a couple of things along the way. One just today. The reason the Musica Theoria strings sounded garbled--like a tape with a missing felt--appears to be that I had the MT bank in Synth A and the default Gm bank in Synth B, and both are used in the piece. I made them both MT and all sounds well.

Another one, which might be of more general interest is that in My Computer/Properties/Hardware/Device Manager/View, one can select show hidden devices. Then going to Sound and expanding it, any devices with grayed out icons are devices that don't exist, yet the drivers are loaded at each startup. Uninstalling these makes the computer work faster, and might help with performance, too.

all best,
mgj