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-   -   Piano Concerto (http://www.notation.com/vb-forum/showthread.php?t=1966)

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 07-10-2005 08:05 AM

I'm not sure where this sh
 
I'm not sure where this should go in the forum's tree, but I'll put it here since it's basically classical in form.

The first movement is in 3/4 time. I can't think of another piano concerto in which there is a long waltz-like movement and have the creepy feeling that the root reason is that it just won't work. In any case, it's marked Allegro.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons...hment_icon.gifPiano Concert, 1st mvt, Allegro
Piano Concerto 2 (149.5 k)</td></tr></table></center>

The second movement, marked adagio espressivo, is based on--in fact, quotes--a Celtic song which I first heard under the title "Will Ye Go Lassie?" but is more frequently known as "Wild Mountain Thyme." The middle section derives from the same tune, and the section ends with a reference to what will become the main theme in the next movement. This movement ends with a quote of the "Thyme" theme.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons...hment_icon.gifPiano Concerto, 2nd mvt, Adagio espressivo
Piano Concerto 2 (39.6 k)</td></tr></table></center>

III is a rondo, with the first two themes being based on American songs, which I don't think I quote directly, except for some phrases, at any point. The movement is marked Allegro molto.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons...hment_icon.gifPiano Concerto, 3rd mvt, Allegro molto
Piano Concerto 2 (96.5 k)</td></tr></table></center>

This is an in-progress thing, but the work remaining shouldn't much alter the over-all midi sound, though it could make a difference in a performance.

mgj

Mark Walsen (markwa) 07-10-2005 07:30 PM

Hello M.G., You've put
 
Hello M.G.,

You've put a lot of thought into the composition and arrangement of this concerto. Some of the exposed piano passages particularly fit the idiom of piano concerto. This piece interestingly explores some chords and chord progression off the beaten path of traditional classical harmonies, while blending in celtic melodies which sound also familiarly American/Appalachian to me.

Could you describe to us when and how you original composed this concerto, and what music software tools you used along the way?

The performance of this MIDI arrangement was unbalanced on my particular General MIDI device. For example, the piano part sometimes was inaudible. Do the different instrument have the intended volume level balances when you play this on your system?

You might find it very exciting to hear your concerto played using GPO. Maybe you can talk one of the GPO fans in this forum to play your concerto using GPO sounds, and save as an MP3 file that you and we can hear.

Cheers
-- Mark

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 07-10-2005 10:06 PM

Hi Mark, Yes, harmonically
 
Hi Mark,

Yes, harmonically it isn't Classical, but formally it is--sonata, song form, rondo.

It was composed from Feb to May of this year. I used Magic Score 3.8, which won't print the parts correctly, and takes up to 20 seconds to start playback in the first movement.

The midi sounds fine here, as does the .not file, in which I've done a little editing--enough to know it works--and will finish when I've registered.

I have some editing to do yet, but the instruments all have the volume level I gave them at the time of entering the notes. That's on my system (which has some sound card issues, as far as having a working program to handle soundfonts), but it sounds the same whether in Magic Score, Windows Media Player, or Composer. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps you are referring to the few measures just after the cadenza where the piano is set way too soft????

Yes, hearing a GPO version would be interesting. Of course hearing it live, with someone else's cadenza, would be more so. Since it lasts about 34 or 35 minutes, even an MP3 would be pretty large.

Thanks for your comments,
mgj

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 07-11-2005 10:32 PM

Hi Mark, "the piano pa
 
Hi Mark,

"the piano part sometimes was inaudible"

I think I know what you are referring to, now. The 1st movement of the first concerto is the one I had listened to in Composer, but I guess I hadn't the first of the second. I imported the midi a while ago and the piano RH had no volume, as far as I listened. I finally figured it out when I looked in Track Setup, where the channel for the RH was listed as auto, while the LH was listed as channel 1.

The solution was to make the RH channel 1, also.

No idea why Composer might have made that auto, but wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the left hand plays alone for a number of measures before the right joins in????

Anyhow, it sounds a LOT different with both hands on channel 1 :}

best,
mgj

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 07-12-2005 05:53 AM

Hello again, Mark, No, that
 
Hello again, Mark,

No, that last was wrong. The RH did not sound only after I moved the notes that belong there up to the RH staff with SHFT+up arrw. The midi played fine until I did that.

It also played fine after using the Track menu, then Split Hands. Composer made a new staff for the RH and put it on channel 1. The RH staff, that was auto channel, could then be deleted.

So, as nice as it is to see once again what a fine job Composer does if you let it do the work, why you have no volume in the piano part, is still a mystery. I am wondering if anyone else is not hearing the piano part at times. If so, I guess the problem, although ironically I hear it all right, is my system. I will borrow time on another computer, and see what it plays like there.

all best,
mgj

Mark Walsen (markwa) 07-12-2005 06:14 PM

Hello M.G., Perhaps we can
 
Hello M.G.,

Perhaps we can find a "repro" for this, that is, a set of steps that consistently reproduces the symptoms of the underlying bug. You already have some ideas about how to create this repro. If you come up with the repro steps, please let me know.

It is very unlikely that shifting notes between tracks would cause the channel assignment or volume level of a track to be changed. It is much more likely that the problem has to do with the Split Hands command.

Cheers
-- Mark

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 07-13-2005 05:54 AM

Hi Mark, OK. Here goes. 1.
 
Hi Mark,
OK. Here goes.
1. Opened the midi file in Composer and began playing it. (I looked at channel assignments first this time; RH was auto and LH was ch 1.)
2. At about measure 40, I decided to split the hands. The treble notes were playing all right, at this point.
3. Did the split hands, selecting piano LH.
4. While it was working to do this, I decided it might be as easy to just use shift up to move the notes to the RH staff, so I undid the shift hands. (I checked track setup this time before ctrl z-ing, and found the first staff still auto and the now-labeled RH and LH staves were assigned channel 1. All notes were playing at this poing.)
5. After the undo, I began in measure 29 to move RH notes to the upper staff, changing clef symbols as needed.
6. After doing several measures, I went back to 29 and play them back, noticing right away the RH staff was not playing.
7. After a perplexed several minutes, I decided to try changing the staff on auto channel to ch 1. Now all notes played.

I'm not convinced there is a bug. If you recreate these steps, notice that my name appears under the staff on auto. Since all the piano notes are on the one staff to start with, I'm guessing that the only reason for that staff being created during the import of the midi file is that text. The strange thing is that the only place my name is enter in the original document is in composition properties, on the composer and copyright lines.

So, rather than a bug, I think I did something I shouldn't have--tried to use the staff for notes when it was there just to contain text.

Hope this helps with something,
mgj



Mark Walsen (markwa) 07-13-2005 07:25 PM

Hello M.G., Your "repro
 
Hello M.G.,

Your "repro" steps are a model for what a developer loves to get from a user having trouble! Now I know exactly what the problem is, and it only took me a few minutes to understand why, given your excellent report.

The problem is that original piano RH track was assigned to "Auto" channel, but there were no MIDI channels available for it to play on. All of the other tracks were assigned to all 16 of the MIDI channels 1 to 16. During playback, MidiNotate will assign an auto-channel track to any non-used MIDI channel, but will not attempt to assign that auto-channel track to any channel number that is specifically designated for another track. Since all 16 channels were specifically assigned to other tracks, there were no channels left for the piano RH auto-channel track.

This problem was easy to fix, though. I just assigned all of the tracks to "Auto" channel, except for the percussion track, which should be assigned to channel 10. That's a General MIDI (GM) requirement, that GM drums must be performed on channel 10. In order to assign all of the track, except the drum track, to Auto channel, go to the Track Setup, click the heading for "Channel". That brings up the Assign Channel to All Tracks dialog box. Choose the option "Use automatic channel assignments during playback.".

I see that there is a usability problem here. Maybe I'll have MidiNotate display a non-obtrusive message in the status bar at the bottom of the window that says, "No channels left for Auto-channel", or something like that.

MidiNotate's Auto-channel feature allows you to assign more than 16 tracks with distinct sounds for a given MIDI device, as long as no more than 16 are playing at a time.

In your particular case, you don't really need to use Auto channel. As you discovered, you could change the assignment of the piano RH track to channel 1, because it shares the same GM Grand Piano sound as the second track for piano LH.

Why did the piano RH track get assigned to Auto-channel in the first place? That's what MidiNotate Composer does by default.

Cheers
-- Mark

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 07-13-2005 08:41 PM

Hi Mark, <chuckle>
 
Hi Mark,

<chuckle> I really didn't think it had the feel of a bug. That still leaves the question of why at times the piano on your system is inaudible.

I did try the first movement on another machine. It sounded disgusting, but that machine has only MS wavetable, or whatever its called, and that sounds disgusting on my machine, too. All pianos are honky tonk. But it was nowhere inaudible, except for the measures I mentioned previously, just after the cadenza. I need to raise the note velocity from 35 or so up to 40 or 45.

This paragraph was interesting:

"MidiNotate's Auto-channel feature allows you to assign more than 16
tracks with distinct sounds for a given MIDI device, as long as no
more than 16 are playing at a time."

I have discovered that it works ok to do an instrument change and assign the piccolo, if used not much, to the flute staff, or if on a different staff to the same channel as the flute. It also works to assign the tuba and trombone, at least as much as I've done it, to the same channel. Ditto the bassoon and contrabassoon, clarinet and bass clarinet, etc.

The question: is this the kind of channel assignment Composer makes on auto assign for all but channel 10? It strikes me that leaving channel assignment to the program would be easier.

An unrelated question, which I will seek out a better twig in the forum tree for if there's anything legitimate. I've had three crashes. I've also had the condition where I would enter notes, hear them, but nothing would show up. I tried entering a note on each staff, but saw none. Closed the program, restarted, opened the file and guess what I found on all those staves where I entered notes....

The question: I have auto error report set to on. Should it have functioned in either of these cases?

all best,
mgj

Mark Walsen (markwa) 07-13-2005 09:14 PM

Hello M.G.,

 
Hello M.G.,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The question: is this the kind of channel assignment Composer makes on auto assign for all but channel 10? It strikes me that leaving channel assignment to the program would be easier.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I'm afraid I don't understand the question and your observation. You might want to read about "auto channel" in the Users Guide.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The question: I have auto error report set to on. Should it have functioned in either of these cases?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>No. Please turn of the Auto Error Report. I'm removing that from the next version of MidiNotate. It tends to create its own new problems rather than help solve problems. When you run into a bug, please find a good place in the forum to report it, or send the bug report to me at
support@notation.com

Cheers
-- Mark



David Jacklin (dj) 07-13-2005 10:49 PM

Hello, M. G. I haven't
 
Hello, M. G.

I haven't had the opportunity to listen to all of your concerto yet, but I do like what I've heard. Some very "classical in intent" places to the solo and orchestral parts, although, as you say, not "classical" in sound.

A little bit Spanish sounding here and there, actually.

Congratulations.

David

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 07-14-2005 07:12 AM

Hi David, Thank you for the
 
Hi David,

Thank you for the comments.

I've always been kind of infatuated with the "classical" forms, and I'm not sure why, but suspect it's because they seem logical. And perhaps because you can put anything in them...even an extended waltz in a sonata allegro. I hope.

all best,
mgj


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