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Fred Winterling (harbor1) 12-05-2005 04:56 PM

I have been playing with addin
 
I have been playing with adding orchestration to a couple of my pieces. This is my last one,"The Summer's Gone". It is not close to being finished, but I thought I could get some advice and criticism. I have to expand the flute part and write more for the Cellos and 3rd Violins. Some of the violin parts have sustains that need to be removed, but I am at a point where I am only working on it a little at a time(frustration set in). I have never even peeked at any other instrument parts but my own all these years, so I have to learn by trial and error what clefs to use and what range to place the notes for the other instruments. I would appreciate any criticism no matter how harsh. I am out of my area here and I will not be insulted, so please feel free to rip it apart. Thanks!
Fred<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons...hment_icon.gifThe Summer's Gone_with orch. unfinished
The Summer's Gone_StringsWorkOn.not (180.1 k)</td></tr></table></center>

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 12-06-2005 07:22 AM

Hi Fred, I still like this.
 
Hi Fred,

I still like this. It does seem a natural for piano and strings.

Instrument ranges can be found in a music dictionary or encyclopedia. Probably most can be found online, though finding a staff with the range possible to the instrument and the range most players can manage I haven't always found easy, though finding basic information on a given instrument is as easy as typing its name in a google search box.

There are a lot of books on Orchestration. You might try a local used book store, or see what Amazon.com has. Luckily, about 45 years ago, I ran across Kennan's "Technique of Orchestration" in a used book sale. Near the back is a listing of the common (and some not so common)orchestral instruments, showing on staves their possible as-written and transposed (if applicable) range, as well as the "easier" range.

In "Summer's Gone" you probably don't need the cello, unless you intend it to stand out. Also I wonder if you didn't intend string ensemble 1, rather than 2. Whichever, the GM string ensemble can be used for the Bass, Cello, Viola and Violin sections. It might help to rename them to Basses, Cellos, etc., then be aware of the range of each instrument.

Generally, the violin can play from G4 on up as high as the player is capable of going, though violins get to sounding thinner and shriller the farther you go above, say, C7. The viola has a low limit of C4 and can go up to C6, while the cello's range is C3 to C6, and the bass, as I recall it, can play up to middle C and go as low as the piano.

I took the liberty of experimenting a bit with "Summer's Gone" and found the more lush sound of the violins an octave lower to be quite appealing in some places.

Anyhow, good luck with this. The piece is well worth working on, I think, and will look forward to hearing subsequent versions.

all best,
mgj

David Jacklin (dj) 12-06-2005 01:36 PM

Here is a text file of orchest
 
Here is a text file of orchestral instrument ranges and transpositions, along with suggested stereo placement for classical orchestra. This is taken directly from Cakewalk's template information.

It'll need reformatting, because the .txt format loses the lovely tabs and such.

Also, I think that the octave numbers are strictly U.S. (and, by habitual extension, Canadian) useage. Middle C is C5 in this chart. Europe uses, I think, a positive/negative system with middle C as 0 -- I believe. Jaap? Is that correct?

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/mime_txt.gifOrchestra transpositions and placement
Instrument Transpositions.txt (3.0 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Fred Winterling (harbor1) 12-06-2005 02:33 PM

Hi MG, Thanks for the suggest
 
Hi MG,
Thanks for the suggestions. I am going to experiment with all of them. I had initially tried dropping the keg signature down a few tones to lower the violins, but I wanted to keep the piano at the same range so I thought I would try working with the octaves after I finished the parts. I will look for the book on the internet. Thanks for taking the time to experiment with the song. I really appreciate the help! For someone who uses the internet to find anything, I never thought to look for instrument ranges. I will re-submit it when I finally finsish it. Thanks again!
FRed

Fred Winterling (harbor1) 12-06-2005 02:37 PM

Hello David, Thanks for the t
 
Hello David,
Thanks for the text file. It should be a great help. I have been doing things the hard way, downloading orchestra pieces to get an idea of the ranges and harmonies, etc. but it gets a little difficult going back and forth with that, but it does help. This file should be what I am looking for. Thank You!!
Fred

Fred Winterling (harbor1) 12-06-2005 06:08 PM

Hello MG, I have re-worked Su
 
Hello MG,
I have re-worked Summers Gone with some of your suggestions. I found that I had started Strings3 with just the intro and never got around to finishing that staff. I took Strings 1 and dropped it an octave and copied it to strings 3, then took strings 1 back up an octave again. It seems to accomplish what was missing. I also extended the flute a little. I also added one measure of clarinet to see if it would add anything. I was toying with the idea of adding more instruments. Am I heading in the right direction? Or should I just concentrate on the strings?
Also I found Technique of Orchestration on the internet for about $5 used. What edition do you have? There are a number of editions. Thanks for your help! Let me know what you think of the changes.
Fred<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons...hment_icon.gifThe Summer's Gone_with orch.Re-Worked
The Summer's Gone_StringsWorkOn.not (206.4 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Mark Walsen (markwa) 12-06-2005 08:35 PM

Hello Fred, I enjoyed heari
 
Hello Fred,

I enjoyed hearing your Summers Gone expand from piano into orchestration.

The score currently is metronomeless. That is, the barlines don't relate to the beat of the music. Something is cooking here in the MidiNotate development office that will help you correct the barlines.

It's on the to-do list to add an instrument pitch range reference in MidiNotate, as well as validation (to make sure a note is within the natural range for an instrument).

Cheers
-- Mark






Fred Winterling (harbor1) 12-06-2005 10:22 PM

Thanks, Mark! Wow, that's
 
Thanks, Mark!
Wow, that's good news! You just keep making this thing gooder &amp; gooder, don't ya? MG has really got me more motivated to work on the song and I have been going at it all day. There was a big problem with the pedal breaks. I have a cheap pedal for my keyboard. It's not the type that is like a regular piano pedal, and I keep resting my foot on it a little too heavily. I just made over 50 pedal adjustments and it sounds a lot better. I think the reason for the metronomelessness (is that a new word?) is because I used my original piano part to start the orchestration...and you know "Freestyle Freddie". Can't wait to see what you have cooking! Thanks again.
Fred

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 12-07-2005 07:14 AM

Hi David, quote: Also, I th
 
Hi David,

quote: Also, I think that the octave numbers are strictly U.S. (and, by habitual extension, Canadian) useage. Middle C is C5 in this chart. Europe uses, I think, a positive/negative system with middle C as 0

This is an interesting question. Several years ago I tried out a composition program that was essentially like writing in a piano roll editor (pretty complex for one used to notes on a staff). Instead of notes one entered lines corresponding to note durations in the octave one wanted. The octaves were graphed on the screen and middle C was the beginning of octave 4, which made the A, Bb and B at the bottom of the piano octave zero. The program was written in Europe, I believe.

It would be nice if there were a global standard.

best,
mgj

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 12-07-2005 07:31 AM

Hi Mark and David, The list
 
Hi Mark and David,

The list you found is helpful, David. I've looked for one that put everything in the same place, for quite a while. Nice find.

quote: It's on the to-do list to add an instrument pitch range reference in MidiNotate, as well as validation (to make sure a note is within the natural range for an instrument).

This would be great. But I beg you to include a range of instruments other than those considered more or less standard, such as trumpets in C and D, the glockenspiel, viola d'amore, etc.

Also, I can see a potential problem with the fact that it is the range, sometimes referred to as "comfortable", that is often given for an instrument, ignoring the fact that a good player can achieve notes beyond that range. For example, while the violin may reach B7 in a list, an orchestral calibre player will be able to handle up to perhaps a G8. C8 is usually given as the top flute note, but even I have made the D8 and some players can get the E8.

best,
mgj

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 12-07-2005 08:13 AM

Hi Fred, My edition is the
 
Hi Fred,

My edition is the 1955 printing of the first edition. I paid $5.75, which price is next to the name of the original owner, both enciled on the inside front cover. (I just wish I could find the kind of detailed information Kennan gives on so many instruments, on the guitar, which he does not cover.)

One problem with "Summer's Gone", for me, is due to the way the Microsoft Wavetable synth acts, at least on my machine. It is way too loud. For example, if I have master volume in Composer set to 90, and the volume of, say, the piano set to 75, using the Creative synth, I will have to reduce the note velocity using MS Wavetable all the way down to about 25 to make the two sounds equivalent.

In light of that, I'm not sure any experimenting I do would be of much value. In order to hear the clarinet measures, for instance, I had to reduce the master volume of the strings way, way down. If you can hear the clarinet on your set up, my experiment would just screw you up.

Have you thought of having the strings act as accompaniment, instead of having them double the piano in the same octave? Seems to me the piano is and should be the star of the piece, rather than competing with the strings. Perhaps the strings could augment the harmony, with violins or violas doubling some of the melody a couple of octaves lower than the piano, which plays mostly in octaves 6 and 7?

I like the flute and clarinet sounds. I wonder if a passage with one of those instruments as soloist--strings and even piano providing accompaniment--might provide a nice contrast? I think the melodic content would support a longer version of the composition.

I also like the metronomeless quality of the piece. I think it adds to the emotional content.

Just some quick thoughts. Hope you will keep posting as your progress.

all best,
mgj

David Jacklin (dj) 12-07-2005 02:07 PM

Hi, M.G.: How do you get no
 
Hi, M.G.:

How do you get notes that high on a flute? Overblowing? Not a flute player, myself, obviously.

Regarding octave numbering, now that I think about it more, your description of the European system rings a bell. Low A on a piano is A0 or just A, then the next A is A1 etc., making middle C, C4. Whereas the "American" system numbers the first A as A1, making middle C, C5.

Now that's all cleared up, I will now tackle the national debt. http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

David


Fred Winterling (harbor1) 12-07-2005 04:13 PM

HI, M.G. Thanks for the info!
 
HI, M.G.
Thanks for the info!

>In light of that, I'm not sure any experimenting I do would be of much value. In order to hear the clarinet measures, for instance, I had to reduce the master volume of the strings way, way down. If you can hear the clarinet on your set up, my experiment would just screw you up.
That's weird. I had to turn the volume down on the clarinet because it overpowered the strings. I took the clarinet out for the moment, but I may try it again later.

>Have you thought of having the strings act as accompaniment, instead of having them double the piano in the same octave? Seems to me the piano is and should be the star of the piece, rather than competing with the strings. Perhaps the strings could augment the harmony, with violins or violas doubling some of the melody a couple of octaves lower than the piano, which plays mostly in octaves 6 and 7?

>I like the flute and clarinet sounds. I wonder if a passage with one of those instruments as soloist--strings and even piano providing accompaniment--might provide a nice contrast? I think the melodic content would support a longer version of the composition.

I agree. That has been on the agenda. On my machine, the strings do not compete too much, but they should. I still have quite a bit of work to do on the strings and the flute. Boy, you should have heard it in the beginning! What a mess! I started out simply copying the piano to the strings. I thought it would be easier to subtract than to create all new parts. But I wasn't thinking clearly at the time, and forgot the foot pedal was also being copied. It took me a while to realize violinists don't use foot pedals. It sounded like an orchestra tuning up! I was using the flute as an "in and out" kind of thing with the piano. I like your suggestion of adding a clarinet or flute solo, too.
Thanks for all your help.
Fred

Fred Winterling (harbor1) 12-07-2005 04:20 PM

Hi David, >>How do yo
 
Hi David,
>>How do you get notes that high on a flute? Overblowing?

I played tenor sax. By tightening up real hard on the reed, I could actually reach a full octave Plus 4 half tones above the highest note on the sax. ( I was a Maynard Furguson fan ).It used to drive the other sax players nuts. They could handle the 4 half tones, but none could go an octave higher.
Good luck with the national debt!
Fred

Mark Walsen (markwa) 12-07-2005 05:31 PM

Hi Fred, M.G. said "I a
 
Hi Fred,

M.G. said "I also like the metronomeless quality of the piece. I think it adds to the emotional content." I agree with that. The barline adjustment feature that's in the works for Composer will not lose any detail of your original metronomeless performance, unless you separately ask it to. The barline adjustment feature affects only the notation, not the playback. I think you understood this in your response that you would like this feature. I just wanted to clarify here that this feature has no intention of draining the feel out of a metronomeless performance by "quantizing" it to a rigid metronome.

Cheers
-- Mark

Fred Winterling (harbor1) 12-07-2005 07:56 PM

Hi Mark, Yes, I think it woul
 
Hi Mark,
Yes, I think it would be a great feature. I expected it would maintain the feel. I have a funny feeling that one day you are going to come out and say "now you can save your files as MP3 or Wav"...hint...hint
Fred

Sherry Crann (sherry) 12-12-2005 03:27 PM

Howdy folks, Alan Belkin ha
 
Howdy folks,

Alan Belkin has written some very useful and cogent guides to various aspects of music. You can find his home page here http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/pers...n/e.index.html

Scroll down the page, and you'll find links to his writings on composition, orchestration, and some other topics. These can be read on-line, or downloaded for printing in PDF format.

I've found them helpful in my growth in musical understanding.

ttfn,
Sherry

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 12-13-2005 07:04 AM

Hi Sherry, Kudos on this fi
 
Hi Sherry,

Kudos on this find, and even more for posting the URL.

all best,
mgj

Mark Walsen (markwa) 12-14-2005 12:22 AM

Hi Sherry, Thanks also for
 
Hi Sherry,

Thanks also for this good find.

Alan Belkin is a generous guy. He contributed a huge amount of effort to the specification of a file format for trading music notation data between programs. The file format was named NIFF. It almost became a standard in the industry. But MusicXML has taken over instead.

Cheers
-- Mark

David Jacklin (dj) 12-14-2005 12:27 PM

I love standards: there are so
 
I love standards: there are so many of them!



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