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-   -   Piano Concerto I 2nd movment (http://www.notation.com/vb-forum/showthread.php?t=1882)

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 06-07-2008 07:01 AM

The first and third movements
 
The first and third movements are in various stages of revision. This movement is a replacement. The original one didn't provide the kind of contrast I wanted . . . and I've always thought this melody one of the more beautiful that exists. The .not file, rather than the .mid file, is in the zip.


<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons...hment_icon.gif2nd movement zipped
Piano Concerto I (195.2 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Sherry Crann (sherry) 06-07-2008 06:35 PM

Howdy MG, Absolutely lovely
 
Howdy MG,

Absolutely lovely!!!

I listened to it first while watching the file play, and you've done a wonderful job scoring it. Then I listened again with my eyes closed, and (being blessed with a really nice soundfont), thoroughly enjoyed it that way as well, perhaps even more because the sonic qualities were more evident without the visual component vying for brain attention. We used to have season tickets to the symphony (B.C. - before children), and I would often just sit and let the music sort of "wash over" me - I did that with this piece as well. A most fulfilling experience. Except I wanted it to go on and on http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

The interplay of instruments does provide contrast, as well as the movement of the piece as a whole. I could envision the pianist as having a very good time, moving from sometimes a pensive to a sometimes playful mood.

Did I mention I really like this?

ttfn,
Sherry

Djim Tio (djimtio) 06-07-2008 10:58 PM

Hi MG Thanks for sharing anot
 
Hi MG
Thanks for sharing another beautifull composition.Listening to the piece
gave me some remeniscences of days gone by ,but also some lightness,foreboding a beautifull spring.Sorry for the somewhat poetic mood ,but thatīs what your song did to me.
As for the technical side; opened in Composer,listened to every single track ( Roland VSC3 GS2 ),exported to midi and recorded to wav 24-bits ( Merlin-Vienna-My Own combi with some adjustments as to the instruments patches ) and then played on my HiFi app.
Regards
Djim

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 06-08-2008 04:53 AM

Hi Sherry, Interesting. I
 
Hi Sherry,

Interesting. I found myself hearing things I thought should be there or changed when I listened to the .mid file in WMP or KMPlayer. So I started to make a method of this; that is, listening in a player, going back to Composer to make changes or additions, or subtractions.

One of the biggest subtractions was the left hand from some piano passages. It gives the piano a more integral part in those passages, making commentary, as it were. Makes those passages extremely difficult, too, I fear. With those the only notes each one has to stand out, but as a part player, rather than being dominant.

Anyhow, the method helped a great deal.

all best,
mgj

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 06-08-2008 05:04 AM

Hi Djim, Nice to see you ag
 
Hi Djim,

Nice to see you again.

I don't know if the tune the movement is based on every made it to Europe, or not. It was written some time around, and probably before, 1900, and is called "When you were Sweet Sixteen." It was popular in the US for at least a while, but not by the time I was born. I must have been in my 50s when I first heard it, on a tape by Joan Patenaud of Gay Nineties songs. Lyrics can be found by a google search. Maybe a midi file, too, so one can see how I messed around with it.

Speaking of soundfonts. I have found that if I have to use channel 10, patch 49, for timpani and cymbals, the cymbals often sound as a "pffft." This is the case with every soundfont I've tried, except t he Merlin Creative. The author said it was designed for Soundblaster and Audigy cards, which mine is. So maybe that's the difference. If I don't have to have timpani and cymbals on the same channel, I can use other soundfonts.

I'd sure love to hear the recording you made. Any chance of rendering as an mp3 and putting it on Senduit?

Djim Tio (djimtio) 06-08-2008 12:45 PM

Hi MG I will try to put the l
 
Hi MG
I will try to put the link to Senduit in this post.http://senduit.com/f75a7e. Itīs a rather between the road quality because of itīs size.Please tell me if itīs still too big.
It has been quite a long time since we were both " sweet sixteen ".
I remember the song from the radio.I used Synthfont and Merlin-Vienna to record the concerto and SB live as audio out.
Also nice to see you again MG !
Regards
Djim

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 06-08-2008 08:50 PM

Hi Djim, Don't worry ab
 
Hi Djim,

Don't worry about too big. With the connection I have at the moment, I can download 70MB in a couple of minutes.

Thanks for sending the recording. You've managed to do several things that I wasn't successful at in the recording I made to put on Soundclick. One of the most important was that you have the saxophone getting the proper emphasis, and your piano sounds exactly like I was hoping for, but didn't get.

Any idea why channel 10 on most soundfonts gives me a lot of "pffft" sound for cymbals. Maybe I should try replacing the drum sets in some other soundfonts with the Merlin Creative drum section.

Heard "Sweet Sixteen" on the radio! Neat. But not a great surprise. When my short wave radio was working, I was so much more impressed with stations I could pick up from all over Europe that with the mish-mash radio has pretty much become here.

take care,
all best,
mgj

Djim Tio (djimtio) 06-09-2008 12:39 AM

Hi Mg Glad to hear that you g
 
Hi Mg
Glad to hear that you got the link.Regarding your "pfffft" problems:
I am not quite sure, but probably might be related to the so called
"polyphonic limitations " of some Soundblaster synth engines when using either large soundfont banks and/or multiple track compositions.In the worst situation some instruments just wonīt "play " or either distorted or badly
anyway.Thatīs the main reason that I donīt use the SB synth engine anymore,rather defaulting to other ( free or donation )software synths, either as stand alone or VST version ( with a suitable VST host and virtual cable).
In my humble opinion, using the Merlin Creative (with limited 32 Mb polyphonic " capacity" )will probably not solve the problem because your multiple track/voice compositions might exceed the( polyphonic) limitations of the soundfont bank and/or your soundcard.
But this is only a non-tech opinion and surely Dave or Herbert and others may have a more technical and to the point answer to the "pffft" problem.
Could you give me some samples with "pffft" sounds on the tympani/cymbals ?
Not much of help, I am afraid, but always a pleasure meeting you on this Forum.
Take care,and regards
Djim

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 06-09-2008 02:18 AM

Hi Djim, Can't even pre
 
Hi Djim,

Can't even pretend to be a techie, but what you say makes sense, even to me. I will spend the new few days looking for a file in which I get the pfffft now and then on the cymbals.

The last file I was getting this effect in was a pretty short piece with a rather small orchestra, the Prelude to the Civil War Symphony.

http://www.notation.com/cgi-bin/disc...gi?35939/36295

That's a midi file, but it still might show, in the last few pages, how I started the cymbals 1/64 of a beat after the Timpani. That helped in a few instances, but not every time. Changing to the Merlin Creative seemed to solve it here, but also in the first movement of a piano concerto where there are passages in which just about everything in the orchestra is playing. I think I could change these back to Vienna and probably the pffft would return.

I'm not sure of this, but I think maybe, while the pffft happens in the .not file, it will be the full cymbal in the midi. No pffft showed up in Synthfont, either. I'll have to load some different fonts into the synth and do some more experimenting.

Maybe what I really need is a new sound card.

all best,
mgj

Djim Tio (djimtio) 06-09-2008 11:39 AM

Hi Mg Sorry but I did not fin
 
Hi Mg
Sorry but I did not find the Prelude you mentioned about,the link referring to this thread instead to the piece.
There is a more direct way to use Composer and Synthfont by using the
VST version in Mini-host and a virtual cable.While playing Composer you can open the VST-Host combi and make changes in real time.without the necessity to export to midi first and switching forth and back to Composer and Synthfont stand alone.But be sure to start up the combi first before opening Composer.Chanches are that you already know about this all, besides me getting out of the scope of this thread.
I am not sure whether a new soundcard will matter much.It probably depends on how the( soft ) synth engine will handle complex soundfont banks and your complex compositions ( and available memory/CPU of course ).Maybe thatīs why some full proīs are still relying on hardware rather
than on soft synths.
BTW, I am still interested in the "pffft" fenomenon.
Regards
Djim

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 06-09-2008 05:36 PM

Hi Djim, I forgot that I on
 
Hi Djim,

I forgot that I only posted the Soundclick link to the piece. I think my memory is taking frequent vacations. I'll enclose the piece here as a .not, which has to be zipped.

<!-attachment-!><center>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons...hment_icon.gif</center><!-/attachment-!>
For the gong, I used the Roland tam tam, btw.

The more direct way you have to use Composer and Synthfont without having to switch back and forth sounds great. Sounds like a much easier way to have effectively 32 channels. But I'm two dumb to really understand how it works.

Anyhow, regarding the pfft. I used sound font librarian to remove the percussion from Merlin My_Own and insert the one from Merlin Creative. Loaded this into my synth and there was no pffft problem playing the Prelude as a .not file. I also tried several other files, with a lot more timpani and cymbals. Same thing; no pfffft.


Later, I will try doing the same thing with Vienna, Gold, and Orchestra, as well as some other soundfonts I tried but still got the pffft.

I think with your set up, you won't hear the pffft, whichever soundfonts you use.

all best,
mgj

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 06-09-2008 05:38 PM

back again. here's the at
 
back again. here's the attachment.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons...hment_icon.gifzipped prelude
Symphon 3 (213.0 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Djim Tio (djimtio) 06-10-2008 01:01 PM

Hi Mg As you already predicte
 
Hi Mg
As you already predicted, I was not able to reproduce a clear pffft symptom.Opened Symphon 3 in Composer,switching forth and back between
my default VSC3 - Soundblaster synth - Maple out to the combi.
In VSC3 using GM2 and GS2
In SB synth various SFbanks ranging from 1 Mb to 160 Mb ( same in the combi ). Audio (SB live )out to my monitors instead of headphones.
In Composer first " solo-ed " : Cymbal,Tympani, Snare-Triangle ( all using same channel and patch Tympani ),than whole orchestra ,but muting
all instruments except the percussion parts.No explicit pffft (like )
symptoms,but (according to my ears) :the output via SB synth missing the clarity and " sustain " compared to the others and getting better using the smaller SFbanks ,which might explain the good
results you have with Merlin Creative and a Soundblaster soundcard regarding the percussion part.But I am not sure about the sound of the other voices in a ( 32 channels ) concerto .
If you would like give the " combi " a try I will wrap up the needed applications and a small " set up " text in a Zip file and and load it up in Senduit.You will get it running before you finished a glass of Merlot.
Sorry if I wasnīt much of help regarding pffft.
Regards
Djim
BTW, I am not sure whether we should move to another thread with this ?

Djim Tio (djimtio) 06-10-2008 03:21 PM

Hi Mg I forgot to ask whether
 
Hi Mg
I forgot to ask whether you checked out the preset balances of the pffft producing Tympaniīs against the Tympani silverīs in the Merlin Creative bank. I use to do this when swapping bass patches to adjust them to a "new" host bank.
Worth trying out ?
Regards
Djim

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 06-11-2008 10:12 PM

Hi Djim, Quote: I forgot to
 
Hi Djim,

Quote: I forgot to ask whether you checked out the preset balances of the pffft producing Tympaniīs against the Tympani silverīs in the Merlin Creative bank. Unquote.

I think this may be something you can do in Vienna, and I've taken a look at what is there, but I'm not sure how to do it.

I have found that there is no pffft with the Merline Creative percussion added to Merlin My_Own, though it is about 99MB with the soundfonts I've added to it. However, I do still get the occasional pffft with the Merlin Creative percussion added to Merlin Vienna. In both cases I deleted the percussion already there before adding the Creative.

The easiest solution is to use one of the orchestra percussion banks from the melodic pool of +Symphony or ... forget the other now. Both have the full range of timpani up to B4. Then from middle C on up, they have cymbals and a few other things, like the triangle and sleigh bells. The only trouble is that doing that leaves only 14 channels rather than the 15 you still have after channel 10.

I may just start making my tuba a trombone so they can use the same channel, which could often free up a channel for one of the orch. percussion fonts.

all best,
mgj

Djim Tio (djimtio) 06-12-2008 05:28 PM

Hi MG Checking out preset bal
 
Hi MG
Checking out preset balances is easy by opening a bank or instrument sf
in Soundfont Librarian and right click on the desired instrument.In the dialog window choose preset balance.You can tweak the sliders and audition using your external keyboard.I do this to check the range and
the sound of an instrument sf.
quote :however,I do still get the occasional pffft with the Merlin Crative percussion added to Merlin Vienna, unquote.
Did you check the preset balance of the "original" percussion before deleting ? It might be worth trying to match the Merlin Creative percussion balance settings to the "originalīs " settings or do a little tweaking with the sliders.
Itīs just a hunch,however, but worth trying with a glass of Merlot to keep the good spirit up.
Regards
Djim

M G Jacobs (mgj32) 06-28-2008 06:51 AM

Hi, There is now a recordin
 
Hi,

There is now a recording of this piece on Soundclick.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=655173

This is the note that should also be there:

This movement is sandwiched between a ragtime third movement, which will appear here when I have revised it to the point someone with only two hands can play it, and a first movement which is too long for the limits here, but a download URL will be furnished when the movement is ready.

The current movement is based, at the beginning and end, on an old song witha lovely melody, "When You were Sweet Sixteen". The middle section, which begins at about 3 and a half minutes, is built on a flute accompaniment to a variation of the main theme of the first movement. That theme is derived from "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear," and is played backward in the variation in question. There, the flute has a section which is completely accompaniment, mostly to the piano. In the middle section of this movement, it becomes the subject.

all best,
mgj


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