2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

One of our Notation Forum stalwarts recently made mention of a solution to a problem that has bothered me for years. In Jazz/Swing Band music, there are frequently situations where you have repeated measures and you only want part of the band to play the first time through the repeat, with others joining in the second time through the repeat. I am embarrassed to not be able to give proper tribute to the respondent that gave me the solution. Perhaps they will chime in and be recognized.

In the past, when I had this situation, I would have two copies of the score: one for printing that showed the written repeats properly; and a second copy (for capturing as a midi file) that had the repeat written out -- part of the band playing the first section of this now longhand repeat, and the others joining in on the second section. Needless to say, this was a librarian's misery.

The tip I picked up was to turn the volume down to 1 (with GraphOverNotes - hint: 0 sometimes causes trouble) on the parts that are to be played only the second time through the repeat. Then in the last measure of the repeat (or last measure of the first ending), make certain the volume is at the level you want the 2x only players to be.

In the sample included below, I have used a snippet of a big band piece I am working on. For this purpose, I have the Alto playing the melody line solo the first time through the repeat and the Baritone joining in unison an octave lower the second time through the repeat. I set the Baritone volume to 1 from measure 1 through to the next-to-last note in measure 3 (Bb3). Then, I set the volume of the last note in measure 3 (F#4) to 71 (I want the Alto voice to be the louder of the two). Having done this, the Baritone's F#4 plays at the proper volume, and because the volume for the Baritone is now turned on, when the repeat goes back to measure 2, the Baritone and Alto are now in unison -- no need to keep multiple versions of the score.

This trick may be well-known to other Notation users, but this is the first exposure I have had to the idea. I hope it is a help to others.

Ralph Rayner

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi Ralph,

Excellent tip - that sounds like David J all over :)

I'm pretty sure you meant "Notation" since "Notion" is actually a whole different program. But it might help those users, too :) Thanks, Sherry. RRR

Thanks for sharing!

ttfn,
Sherry

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi, Ralph, Sherry:

If the low volume marker is set at a later point in the first "silent" bar, then the Midi export should be successful.

Hope that helps.

David

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Thank you very much, David. I changed the sample a little by first setting the volume level for the entire baritone part to 71, then setting the volume level to 1, starting at beat 4 in measure 1 through to the next-to-last note in measure 3. This works great and exports cleanly. I also changed the baritone to be a harmony part. It's a little bit easier to hear the entrance of the baritone this way. I also added one measure at the end, just to make the sample sound a little bit more complete.

Ralph

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Well, Sherry, David and others -- I was feeling pretty good about my workaround for this problem, but I raised another condition which makes my solution not work.

In the attached snippet, I wanted the tenor sax to solo through the first time through the repeat, and the three horn brass choir to join in on the second time through. I set the choir to volume level 1 using GraphOverNotes for measures 2 through 16; then changed the volume level of the choir to 79 in measure 17, hoping the repeat would activate the volume. Didn't work -- the choir stayed on break.

Of course, in the original example I submitted, there were notes in the first ending that I wanted to sound, so my volume level change was associated with a note in that case. So, in this example, as I don't have a note to tie to the volume change in measure 17, I guess volume never gets triggered.

Any suggestions?

Ralph

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi Ralph,

Entering such MIDI performance tricks is indeed a bit tricky :) The key here is (1) where you enter the volume change and (2) the order you do the volume settings because they are entered as "events' in the hidden MIDI event list.

To get the effect you're after, you'll need to have the volume 79 kick in somewhere before the end of the "Note on" event in measure 16 (you did this in the first snippet you shared in this thread, so it worked perfectly). In the snippet you have here, the volume change occurs after the note-off (end of the note) event. In messing around with your file this seemed to be a necessary condition.

You'll also want to make sure that the initial Vol 1 event happens before the beginning of measure 2, so that it doesn't negate the volume event at the end of the passage.

Each beat gets 480 "ticks". When I did the following, I was able to get the effect that you are after:

1. Click the Staff Select button for Trumpet 1 and set the volume to 79 using the "96" button in GraphOverNotes.
2. Select a region for Trumpet 1 of Measure 1 beat 4 tick 470 through measure 16 beat 4 tick 477.
3. In GraphOverNotes/Volume, set the volume to 1 using the "96" button.
4. Lather, rinse, repeat for the other choir staves, or if you want the same volume settings just copy/paste the graph to the other staves.

Now, though, is a puzzlement to me that the notes in measure 16 for the choir staves don't sound even though the other prior notes do. That we will have to investigate....

ttfn,
Sherry

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Thank you, Sherry. Perhaps you know this already, but the workaround did nothing for playing within Composer. The choir stayed silent throughout. The midi version was what I am looking for.

I did not experience the measure 16 puzzlement you mention in midi.

Ralph

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi Ralph,

Yeah, but this way you get it in Composer AND the MIDI export :)


But for your purposes, did the method I mention give you the desired result? That is the question. If so, then all is well. If not, then more to be done....

ttfn,
Sherry

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi, guys:

The attached version of Ruffo's Lament works for me in both .not and .mid format.

The problem lay in that there were a couple of superfluous "Volume 1" events in the muted tracks that negated the raising of the volume level at the repeat. I used the eraser tool to scrub over the low volume areas and make sure there were no extra events there.

I also made sure that the volume down events were in the middle of the "silent" bar 1, and then that the volume raise events happened in the middle of the 1st ending bar. That way nothing will get skipped.

Hope that helps.

David

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi Sherry,

Well, the midi did work and the visual in Composer worked, however the audio did not work in Composer -- the choir remained silent throughout. Thank you.

Ralph

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi, Ralph:

See my post just above your latest post. I think that will solve your dilemma.

David

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Thanks, David. I responded to Sherry's reply before I saw yours was there.

Your version works very well, but when playing it back in Composer, the choir goes silent in measure 17. Not so in the midi, where all choir measures play as intended.

I am embarrassed to say that you are way over my head in your descriptions of events, and I don't understand all of what you say, but I will continue to try. I wouldn't know where to start to try to scrub an event. Time to dig into Mark's and Sherry's wondrous User's Guide.

Note to Sherry: Searching for "eraser tool" in the online UG yields no results -- should it?

Ralph

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi, Ralph:

I didn't notice that first time -- I was listening to the beginning of the repeat. Yeah, we lose the three brass instruments when it comes back around to bar 17.

However, the .mid file is correct -- and correctly notated when loaded into Composer, which means that Composer "sees" the notes in bar 17 when it saves the .mid file, but somehow misses "seeing" them when it plays back.

I played with adding a new bar to the second ending (as a new bar 18) and pasting bar 17 into it, then setting the endings to two bar endings, but it still mutes the brass at the new bar 18, even though the volume is up at that point.

I then, starting with a fresh load-up of the file, tried deleting the 1st ending symbol and suddenly bar 17 plays as it should on the repeat, meaning that the spurious muting has something to do with the ending symbol (or rather its coding underneath).

At this point, I pass the question to those with more experience than I.

David

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi guys,

I did what David did, only slightly different method (I just set the entire region to volume 1 as detailed previously).
The exported .mid playback is perfect.
I also get correct playback with Composer up til the repeated m17 where the choir instruments drop out for some reason.

If that is exactly what you guys are seeing on your setups then I'll write up a task for that, but given that this is a "fool ya" type of setup it won't get as high a priority as, say, the internal synth to beat the Windows 10 sound issue :)

Ralph, the eraser tool is in the Graph Over Notes palette, next-to-last on the right of the tools (next to the "96" button).

ttfn,
Sherry

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi, Sherry:

I get the same result you do.

I don't know what to call it, but it does appear to have eight legs. ;)

David

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Precisely what I see also. Understood about the priority.

Sorry for being vague, Sherry. My point was that the User's Guide search returned no hits for "eraser tool", and wondered if it should be added to whatever list a search goes through.

And, my point for David should have been, "What did you see that needed to be erased?" I don't know where under the covers you were seeing the extra events. I didn't see anything out of the normal.

Thanks!

Ralph

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi Sherry,

I should let you know that this has become a non-issue for "Ruffo's Lament". I have had to eliminate the repeats for other reasons.

Ralph

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

It is said that one of the primary definitions of stupidity is repeating an act and expecting different results.

Well, the attached snippet is not exactly a repeat, but it is a very similar attempt at a special effect...and, well, I was expecting/hoping for different results.

The snippet essentially is a repeated 16-measure segment, with the two tenors playing through in unison the first time through. The trombones faithfully start playing after beat 4 in the 1st ending.

So, the score looks right for this scenario, and it plays right -- up until the final note in measure 15 (D4) for the trombones. The D4 sounds short to my ears -- not a duration of 280 ticks like the tenors. At that point, the trombones go on break and don't play the last four notes in measure 16.

I have used the tricks discussed in this thread, with the trombones set to Volume = 79 for the first 3 beats of measure 1, dropping to Volume = 1 on beat 4/0 and extending through measure 17, beat 3/479, resetting to Volume= 79 on beat 4/0.

As with other examples in this thread, the midi version plays it right, and the trombones continue to slave away 'til the bitter end, i.e., no taking a break in measure 16 (I must have too much time on my hands).

Says the King, "'Tis a puzzlement!"

Ralph Rayner

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Hi Ralph,

The fact that the MIDI export works correctly and that the measures in question are near a repeat lead me to believe that this is pretty much the same issue (or closely related) you reported before regarding repeats. Same caveats for the "gotcha" scenario apply in terms of priority :)

ttfn,
Sherry

Re: 2x (2nd Time) Only in Repeats
 

Thank you, Sherry. I kind of figured it would be. But, at least here is another example/test file to add to your eventual debug kit.

Ralph