GPO Mod wheel and NC Controller %7c96%7c Menu option

[John Smith (johnsmi)]

Hi,
I'm just in the process of setting the Mod wheel to somewhere mid-range (8000) for the orchestral template I'm building. I can see how to do it an instrument at a time - just wondered if there's a way to do it for *all* instruments in the score, in one go? As GPO starts off with the mod wheel set to zero, I think it's nearly always needed to set it to some larger value! That's easy to do in NC (of course), but if there are many instruments and then later maybe want to change or experiment with this "bias" setting it'd be nice to be able to change them all at once.
Thank you.
-Johnsmi

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy John,

There is currently not a way to set the Mod wheel value as a constant across all the staves at one shot. However, there is a pretty fast way to do it after you've got all your staves assigned. I'm using Notation Composer 2.0 here:

1. "Select" the entire song - either use the Region/Select region" or the staff control "Select" button + "Shift" to select all staves.

2. Click on the GraphOverNotes tab.

3. Click the "Ctl with ?" button in the second level palette.

4. Select the "Mod wheel" as the controller to graph.

5. Click the "96" button in the third level palette.

6. Set your default value (8000) for the first staff, and click "Ok".

7. Repeat steps 5 and 6 for each staff (you can select each staff out of the drop list as you go through). The value 8000 (or whatever you set) will remain in the value field unless you change it, so that all you'll really need to do is to click "Ok" for each staff.

8. The graph for all staves will remain highlighted through this procedure, and you'll be able to see the new graph line displayed in each staff as you set it's mod wheel. When you're done, you'll see a line for each staff.

It took a whole lot longer to describe it than it took me to do it for a song with 10 staves http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I'm not sure what your experience has been, but mine has been that each instrument can take quite a different Mod wheel number to be at a balanced volume with other instruments (that is, all other parameters being equal). GPO is an amazingly rich (if somewhat complex) library.

Have fun!

ttfn,
Sherry

[John Smith (johnsmi)]

Hi Sherry,
Thanks for the detailed information. That is in fact exactly what I have been doing (really :-) ). And as you say it doesn't take too long. However with 44 staffs it is rather tedious. It's not doing it once that's the (small) problem though - more that if it then needs to be changed, perhaps several times, to experiment with GPO sound level.

Again, as you correctly point out GPO generally needs different sound levels for each instrument anyway, but I was just trying to set a reasonable non-zero level for all instruments and then go through again and make specific instrument adjustments.

Maybe I should put a request in for a new feature in 2.x on this point?

"Setting controller for ALL staffs to same value in one go"? Or maybe easier to be able to select all instruments in existing menu?
Thanks
Regards
-Johnsmi

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi,

Well, here's my first "how do I..." question.
How can I get vibrato with trumpets and trombones, etc?
The mod wheel controls velocity. I selected "aftertouch" in GPO and JABB and set a percentage. Then set a value for cc#17 in Composer... No effect. Haven't been able to get anything from GPO forums or the manual, except to use Aftertouch and CC17. Thanks for any help!
Cheers,
Fred

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

GPO and JBB are wonderful sound libraries, but it's like the difference between playing a whistle and a saxophone - there is more complexity to how they operate as well as the complexity of the sound you can get out of 'em!

There are some downloadable resources on http://www.garritan.com/downloads.html that give the details about controllers for the instruments, and what they affect. I'm not sure what Garritan ships in their packages, but you might even want to check that page for updates to what came in your CD-ROM package as well.

There are also some tutorials on using GPO for orchestration, and getting convincing performances out of the instruments at http://www.garritan.com/tips_tutorials.html. There are also some other interesting technique tutorials there. Check it out http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry,

I've heard the convincing performances and have spent hours searching the forums. The download page has nothing to help find the answers. I have all the latest. The DVD version is the latest version just received in Dec. The tutorials offer nothing more than what I already have. Nowhere does anything explain how to get vibrato on the trumpet (other than "use aftertouch for vibrato intensity and CC17 for speed")...huh? They tell you what but not how. I tried selecting "aftertouch' in the Knotakt player along with CC#17 in Composer. I just flat out can not get a vibrato. I even tried using CC76 and CC77. The only way I can get the vibrato is by using general midi and CC#1. I can not get it with GPO or JABB instruments. Anything I can find in the forums assumes I am an expert. It's all Greek to me. I just can't get any answers. God forbid I should try using drop offs and kisses, etc. I'm not using a keyboard. I'm trying to get the effects with GPO that I can get with general midi with existing notation files. My keyboard does not have a mod wheel and I can not insert controllers with my keyboard. I have ran out of places to look for answers. Thanks for your suggestions and advice. If anyone has any .not files or .gpo or studio files using various controllers for various effects and can upload a file that I can analyze, that would be a big help. Thanks again!
Cheers,
Fred

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Fred,

I just read your post. Here is my experience and it is not so good.

I have bought JABB and GPO recently as you have. After installation, I did only a few tests. I was quite impressed with cc22 and cc23 for drums. It is excellent. I then noticed that mod wheel and velocity could not be controlled. This was a week ago. I will do some tests shortly and let you know.

Best wishes,

Herbert

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Herbert,

Thank you, Herbert! Maybe together we can figure something out. For the life me, I can not understand why GPO saw the need to use the mod wheel for velocity. They could use any number of "unidentified" controller numbers for that purpose. Another thing that is puzzling is that if you used pitch bend in existing songs, GPO totally messes them up. I use them for sax solos, trombone slides (also trumpet) and when using a GPO instrument, it sounds like someone hit the trombone player's elbow during the slide or punched the sax player in the mouth. Every pitch bend that I spent hours on perfecting with general midi now have to be completely redone to work properly with GPO instrumets. Many other parts have to be re-written as well. If there is a 16th note tied to a quarter note, GPO will play them separately. I guess I'll have to add pedal to all of them. What fun!!
It's really disheartening to listen to the awesome sounds the pros get with GPO and JABB. All I get is slop. It is depressing to say the least. Thanks for all your input. I'm sure glad you also have GPO and JABB. Your knowledge and experience will be a big help.

Cheers,
Fred

[Bernie Ackerman (bernie9)]

This may be a different solution, since I do not have GPO or JABB. I have been attempting to wean myself off arranger keyboards(Technics KN7000) to achieve maximum quality while playing live. Naively,I thought one could simply apply a cc #and produce vibrato.

I have Kontakt 2 and Collossus. I soon found out that, because of the extreme flexability possible in these programs, one has to go into the engine and make your own,unless you use KS or scripts. I chose to go into Kontakt,chose my waveform,assign LFO's,choose frequency, and use velocity as a controller.

I hope you two have an easier solution, but ,at least I can identify with your frustration.

[Susan Bagot (susanmusic)]

For folks like me lurking in this forum and deciding that GPO is way too complicated, I see on the Garritan website that they will have a General MIDI product out in February. It will use normal general midi controllers and not mod wheel.

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

Have you tried out any of they KS (keyswitch) instruments? I don't what all JABB has, but I know for GPO, some of the KS instruments go from 'straight" to "vibrato" when you use the KS.

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Bernie,
Thanks for your input. You know, I'm 68 years old and in my lifetime I have found only one user manual that tells you exactly how to do everything there is to do informatively. That manual is Mark's Composer User Guide. (Thank you, Mark!). Because of that, ( before Composer ) whenever I would buy anything dealing with instructions, my first act would be to toss the intructions or manual back in the box and "do it myself". Then if I got into serious trouble I would fish the manual back out of the box and try to find the answer. In the case of GPO and JaBB, I read the manual from cover to cover several times. This is what the JaBB manual says in regard to vibrato.
" Vibrato Control: There are 2 controllers that affect vibrato. Aftertouch controls the intensity of the vibrato from no vibrato ( Aftertouch=value of “0” ) to exaggerated vibrato ( Aftertouch= high number value. ) Because both components of the vibrato are independently controllable the user can apply vibrato in a much more flexible and realistic fashion. The speed of the vibrato is controlled using cc17. Note that some keyboards, like those from M-Audio, have no after touch function but can assign cc131 to a programmable slider which, in turn, will send data out to your computer."

That's it!! No mention of how, what, where or when. Searching the forums, the tutorials, the troubleshooting, etc. etc. reveals only that one paragraph, period. Everyone does not have a keyboard containing a mod wheel and the ability to select every controller number available. With all the experts on the Native Instruments Forum, not a single person has considered answering the question, HOW??? I've asked to no avail. If I want vibrato in Composer, all I have to do is enter a note, select the Modulation Wheel and draw a curve. Voila!...Vibrato. A very simple process!

It's looking more and more like I should have just spent the money on a better sound card that allows for loading good sound fonts and forget about GPO. I haven't written a thing since I got it. I am sorry to sound so depressing...but it is. Hopefully, it will get better.

Cheers,
Fred

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Susan,

That's the best news I've heard all day. I hope they make it a free upgrade. That could be the answer! Thanks!
Fred

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry,

" Have you tried out any of they KS (keyswitch) instruments? I don't what all JABB has, but I know for GPO, some of the KS instruments go from 'straight" to "vibrato" when you use the KS."

Yep! All the KS does for the brass instruments is offer the ability to go from "open" to "mute" on the fly.

Cheers,
Fred

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

Aha! You wrote:
---------------
Vibrato Control: There are 2 controllers that affect vibrato. Aftertouch controls the intensity of the vibrato from no vibrato ( Aftertouch=value of “0” ) to exaggerated vibrato ( Aftertouch= high number value. ) Because both components of the vibrato are independently controllable the user can apply vibrato in a much more flexible and realistic fashion. The speed of the vibrato is controlled using cc17. Note that some keyboards, like those from M-Audio, have no after touch function but can assign cc131 to a programmable slider which, in turn, will send data out to your computer."
---------------

This description is for those who are playing the instrument "live" (which is one reason they use the Mod wheel for dynamics - it's their idea of "easy to control dynamics" while playing a keyboard, but I digress...) that they can use the assignable slider.

You can do this in Composer, just like you've previously done the Mod wheel (which is cc 1). At least you can currently graph the "17 general purpose" one, which will control the speed of the vibrato. Mark has been planning to add support for all controllers, and this is probably impetus enough to bump up that feature addition.

Go to the "GraphOverNotes" tab, and click the "CTL with ?" button, then select the number 17 controller (currently listed as general purpose) and then draw your curve. You can do this for any controller that you need to. You'll need to be sure that the controller for "Aftertouch" is set to cc131 in your Garritan Studio, as well, so that the two apps are not "talking" at cross purposes.

Well, controller 131 is currently not available in Composer, so you would have a speedy non-vibrato http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/sad.gif

I bet Mark could be persuaded to include it in an update patch soon if at all possible http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry,

I have been using cc17 to draw the curve for vibrato speed. I selected Aftertouch in the drop down (down arrow next to velocity) and set the slider to as far as 100% and in between. Neither does anything.
Quote> "You'll need to be sure that the controller for
"Aftertouch" is set to cc131 in your Garritan Studio, as well, so that the two apps are not "talking" at cross purposes."

I see no way to set aftertouch to cc131 in Garritan Studio.

Unfortunately, my wife just received some very bad news concerning her health. She went to Baltimore ( our doctors are there ) yesterday and got the bad news a little while ago. I don't know how much I can put into music at this point. But, on the other hand, I may need something to keep my mind busy. I have to hold the fort down here in Virginia. Please remember her in your prayers. I would really appreciate it. Thank you!

Cheers,
Fred

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

Please know that I will be praying for your wife, as well as for you and others in your sphere of family and friends. We've travelled that road before, and it can be rocky.

As for the controllers, since Composer doesn't have a way to graph the cc131, that value may be getting reset to 0 when you start a file in Composer, and that's probably why you're not hearing any vibrato in your files.

I've passed along the request to Mark to include support for all controllers, for use with Garritan libraries as well as any others that folks might be using, or contemplating using.

glr,
Sherry

[Bernie Ackerman (bernie9)]

Hi Fred
I am also sorry for the bad news. I have been there too.

I got so discouraged,I went out and bought an SD2 module from Ketron. It sounds great, but without the degree of choice I have with my software. I know, I am throwing money at the problem, but I am your age, and don't feel I can invest years to get simple vibrato from software.

Maybe good old Mark can come to the rescue.

Bernie

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry and Bernie,

Thank you for your best wishes for Patsy. We could use some good news in that area.
I assume that Aftertouch is cc131? If I select it for one instrument (channel 1 ) set to 100%, it reverts back to 0% if I select the next instrument (channel 2). CC17 is drawn in the Composer staffs. I click play in Composer then minimize the screen and one of the GPO instruments still shows Aftertouch at 100%. But there is no vibrato as the song plays. I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean that the aftertouch is really on. But it appears to be on on the one channel that is showing. You're probably right about it reverting to 0%. In the meantime, I seems my only choice is to stay with the general midi instrument sounds in those kinds of files. Thanks for your help! I think you are right, too, Bernie. I foresee Mark coming to the rescue also. I wanted to send him a cape and a shirt with a big "S" on it for Christmas, but I was short of funds! http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello Fred,

Patsy and you will be in my prayers also.

You might pass on to Patsy that I liked the piano painting she did for you so much that I've placed an order with my 16-year old son to do a piano art piece for me, except his media is digital graphics, and he's going to put a cat on top of my piano instead of the flowers Patsy put on top of your piano. Patsy's art particularly appeals to me.

Best wishes to both of you.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Fred,

I am very sad to hear about your wife.

My wife and I will pray for your wife.

Our thoughts and wishes will be with you. We have never met, but we share a passion.

Margaret, Herbert


::::::::::::::::::::::::::


We have been told that Composer and GPO work well together.

IT IS DISAPOINTING

I have just done a few tests. Composer 2 and Composer 1.1.7 behave differently. Composer 1.1.7 operates Mod Wheel as expected. In Composer 2, Mod Wheel turns on the sound for a staff only, but does not set the level. Both versions do not support midi controllers above 95 for 1.1.7 and 97 for version 2. So, Vibrato, very important for expression, can not be used.

There is a lack of communication between Composer and GPO. There is a lack of midi controllers in Composer to reasonably use GPO.

I hope to find some more time on the weekend for detailed tests.

While I am writing this, I am listening to the CD of sound recordings that came with GPO. It is very impressive. Not all effects seem to be part of GPO.


Best wishes,

Herbert

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Mark,

Thank you very much for your prayers for Patsy. She will be very happy to hear your words about her art as well. What makes it so difficult is the not knowing. An Ultrasound test revealed a solid mass in her breast. The doctor is pretty convinced it is cancer and she needs a biopsy for confirmation. The problem is that she is on Coumadin ( blood thinner for Atrial Fibulation ). It may take about 10 days to get her off the drug to make it safe to do the biopsy. So the waiting makes it even more difficult and prolongs the agony. Not to mention that she is at our old home in Baltimore and I am in Virginia Beach. I will need to throw a mattress in the car and pack up my German Shepherd and head up there shortly. Everything we own is here, so the problems are a little compounded. We have been married 49 years so we have some experience dealing with adversity. We've made it past all of that before and I expect we will make it past this as well. Thank you very much again for all your prayers and kind words.

Cheers,
Fred

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

One of my best friends just went through this whole scenario, through a major surgery and follow up chemo. The treatments are so much better than they used to be, and Chris is doing great now. We'll keep you and Patsy in our prayers. The distance aspect makes it very difficult.

glr,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Margaret and Herbert,

Thank you very much for your prayers. I joked once about how we should have a big party and get to meet each other personally. This forum is like a large group of family and friends. Whenever anyone in this group has a question or a problem, no matter how trivial or complex, the answer is there within minutes. It's really amazing, and I have not found that anywhere else. I think you said it right when you said we share a passion. I'm sure that explains the closeness this group has.

I had a feeling you would figure out the problems with how GPO performs. Susan mentioned GPO will be coming out with a general midi product in February. Hopefully, that will be the answer to all the quirks. They should absolutely provide it as a free upgrade. I still can not understand why the GPO software uses controllers that are so prevalent in general midi for opposite effects. Thanks again for your testing and help.

Cheers,
Fred

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry,

Thank you! That helps to make me feel better.

Best,
Fred

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Fred

Using JABB, I get mod wheel to work now properly.

Velocity sticks out from the other midi controllers, with its graphical adjustment in Composer. I would prefer to have uniform graphical adjustment tools for all controllers.

I hope that Mark makes a few changes to composer, for JABB and GPO to work better with Composer. Composer should be as universal as possible in its usability with other software.

Best wishes,

Herbert

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Herbert,
Glad you have the mod wheel working OK. I didn't have a problem with that as far as volume is concerned in Composer. I think Mark will get the problem solved. I guess a lot of people used GPO for the instrument sounds without getting too involved in the effects. I never really used the vibrato, for instance, in most of my work. But since I found how to use it in Composer, it became more important to me. I haven't tried experimenting yet with things like shakes and growls, etc. but that could become fun if those effects are usable with GPO and JaBB.

Cheers,
Fred

[Bernie Ackerman (bernie9)]

I see Garritan is releasing a marching and concert band package this month. I wonder if this is the one that has been anticipated.

http://www.garritan.com/band.html

Bernie

[M G Jacobs (mgj32)]

Hi Fred,

I am very sorry to hear about Patsy. I hope she is through this soon and again painting those gorgeous compositions, with the technique and coloration that I have enjoyed so much on your site.

Sorry, too, about your continued troubles with GPO. I think I join Susan in thinking using such a complex program is beyond my talents, or desire, for that matter. Although I have auditioned all the GPO instruments and find the demos first rate, I am slowly--very slowly--finding soundfonts that are at least comparable--not quite an orchestra's worth yet, but getting there. After all the time spent in searching, downloading, and sifting through banks for the gems, I'm feeling pretty exhausted. Just give me 32 channels and good celesta, harp, piano, etc., soundfonts I haven't found yet, and I'll be happy.

Of course I have to depend on setting the as performed duration of a note at at time, then testing each, where GPO lets you make whole passages legato, and I have to use program changes to adjust vibrato (short of learing to edit soundfonts, which is another time burner).

You might look at it this way: the work you do in learning GPO will probably turn out to be less than I've already spend working with soundfonts and eventually it will be easier to get the sounds you want.

Best to both you and Patsy,
mgj

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy guys,

Let's see if we can clear up a couple of items here http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Herbert, when you mentioned "I would prefer to have uniform graphical adjustment tools for all controllers.", what "uniform method" did you have in mind? You can graphically edit any of the controllers that Composer supports, not just the velocity. If you use the GraphOverNotes tab, you can then click the "Ctl + ?" button, and select which controller you want to graph. The different types of graphical representation are intended to reflect a visual correlation with the particular controller. If you have suggestions for improving the implementation here, we're listening http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

For all the "what controller does which thing?" issues, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that GPO and JABB don't adhere to MIDI controller naming conventions. For instance, there are some controllers in the MIDI convention (such as for portamento parameters) that are different in GPO (it uses different controller numbers than the 5 and 65 of MIDI convention). Or, there are some parameters in GPO that are more complex, such as the vibrato, which uses two different controllers cc17 and cc131 to control vibrato speed as well as amount, respectively, where MIDI uses only one controller for a fixed vibrato effect.

MIDI conventions were intended as a standard, a common reference. I think this is where we're leaving our comfort zone, because as Clyde has pointed out elsewhere, any sound library is going to have it's special little quirks, because the developers are usually trying to accomplish certain things with their particular library.

So, for example, while MIDI has some "named" controllers for particular effects (such as 68 legator) GPO generally uses "unnamed" controllers to accomplish these effects. Thus, if you use the MIDI "conventional legato 68", it won't affect a GPO instrument performance in a "legato" fashion, because that's not the controller they use for that effect. I'm not sure why they do this (Mark probably knows, or can guess better than I can), but that's the way it works.

What Composer tries to do is to make all this controller stuff easier to work with, by having the graph of any controller visible right over the notation, so you know how much of what type of effect (portamento, vibrato, etc.) is happening over which notes. So, you can use Composer to graph controller 24 to set the reverb for some instruments (brightness for others) in GPO, even though in the MIDI controller list it's just listed as "MIDI controller 24".

From what Clyde has said elsewhere, organs can be lots of fun this way, too http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Clyde (clyde)]

Hi All,
I have been reading the postings and feeling for you guys, and seeing Sherry mentioned my name in her latest despatch, I thought I would add to what has been said both to Fred and his family situation, and also re the experiences with GPO.

When the Garritan bulkbuy offer came up in Nov, I wrote on the forum that people needed to be aware that buying the software would not give instant success. In fact, like your experiences, I have found GPO virtually impossible to drive and get the required sound, and so it just sits there unused. I often wonder how the people who did the demos on the Garritan site obtained such a great result, because I found it nearly impossible even to get one instrument sounding like I wanted it to.

I think the answer lies partly in a better interface to GPO, so it overcomes the 'funnies' in the way GPO and other similiar software (like the organ software I use) use (and ignore) the midi standards. Sure enough you can make the system work if you are a genius and have lots of time, but for us mere mortals who have a variety of interests in life, it is all just too hard.

My central criticism of these packages, is that the interfaces to these packages that currently exist are not 'musician interfaces'. They are technical interfaces - which work - but they are not the way musicians do things !!!

The beauty of Composer is that it thinks like a musician, and that is why I like it. I would add my voice to all the others hoping that 'superman' Mark will save the day and provide us with a 'musicans' interface that overcomes the technical requirements of these products.

Cheers ... Clyde

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi MG,

Thank you for your support. I will be sure to tell Patsy how much you enjoyed her art works. She loves to use vivid color and will be pleased that you have noticed and appreciated that.

About GPO, I know it will take a lot of work and time to get anywhere with the kind of effects that would satisfy me. I know for sure I will never accomplish the superb sounds and effects that others have achieved. I don't have enough years left for that. I also don't have enough cash for the kind of keyboard or synth that is required to reach the ultimate. I have a $300 Yamaha keyboard that I thought was wonderful. I just can't put several thousand into an elite system and, even if I did, I don't have the technical skills to understand what to do with it anyway. I think I should continue to do things the way I always have, and add some better sounds little by little to make some improvements along the way. Such as using the GPO Steinway piano for "Solitude". I need to think about creeping instead of running.http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Clyde,

Everything you said is "right on".

My central criticism of these packages, is that the interfaces to these packages that currently exist are not 'musician interfaces'. They are technical interfaces - which work - but they are not the way musicians do things !!!

AMEN!!!!!

Cheers,
Fred

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello John, Fred, Herbert, Bernie, MG, and Sherry,

Where's Mark been during all this discussion about GPO?

I've been listening; and Sherry also today gave me a very good digest about all of the GPO-related issues brought up in this thread.

I can report to you that a huge amount of work has already been done here to directly or indirectly support GPO, but has not been released yet. In fact, I did a lot of this work more than a year ago, but have not released it yet, because I wanted to package most of the GPO support in one release rather than dribble it out. Why?

Well, right now you all are blaming GPO for how difficult it is to use. That's not really fair to GPO. It offers great instrument sounds, with a lot of control, at a very reasonable price. GPO should not be blamed for the fact its interface is highly technical, with nasty MIDI controllers and such. That would be like blaming MIDI for being complicated at the level of bits and bytes. It's the job of software to make underlying technology easy to use. GPO itself doesn't attempt to offer such software with a "musical interface". That should be the notation program's or MIDI sequencer's job. That should be Composer's job! After all, Composer is both a notation editor and MIDI sequencer.

I could have dribbled out partial solutions to make GPO easier to use for Composer users. But as soon as I started doing that, Composer itself would have become the brunt of criticism about how difficult GPO is to use. That would have indeed been fair, to criticize Composer for not making GPO easy to use. But, no other notation app makes GPO easy to use either. In fact, Composer already makes GPO easier to use than probably any other notation app. This will be good marketing for Composer, to release the good GPO support all at once. I apologize that you very few folk who have struggled with GPO haven't been able to enjoy, up to now, the GPO support features that are actually already implemented.

It won't be long before some new Composer features for GPO will come out with quite a bang. Most of these GPO support features will all come out at the same time. There will be a quantum leap in how much easier it will be to get good sound out of GPO in Notation Composer.

At this time, I'm not disclosing details about what these GPO support features in Composer will be, nor the schedule for the release. If you go back and read this entire huge thread that you have all participated in, the detailed issues you have brought up only offer a glimpse at the larger scale GPO support problem that new features in Composer will solve.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Mark,

Aha! I knew you had a shirt with a big red "S" on it hanging in your closet.http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I had to struggle trying to convey my problems and frustrations with GPO and JaBB. It is difficult doing that without "dissing" somebody. Obviously, GPO has some pretty awesome capabilities and is offered at a very affordable price for that kind of program. I owe Gary a sincere apology for what, I am sure, appears to be an attack on his product. In truth, it is not. I fully understand that to achieve those kinds of results demands a high degree of technicality. My complaint is not that the programs are so highly technical or complex, but with the fact that the manual is insufficient for the average "dummy" ( like me ).

Composer was difficult for me too, in the beginning. The difference is this: If I needed to find out how to do anything ( anything at all ) all it took was to read your manual. There is not a thing that Composer is capable of that is not fully explained in the User's Guide. I may have had to read some things more than once, but that was because of my own limitations. Not only that, but ask a question on this forum and you get an answer... just about all of which are fully understandable. That's one of the advantages Composer has over all the rest.

The good news is that you are working on things that will help make it all easier. I understand and agree with your decision to bring out the improvements all at once, rather than in dribbles. It's also obvious that since you have been working on it for over a year that 'it ain't all that easy'. I can wait. Knowing you are going to make it all better is good enough for me. I certainly thank you for all the hard work you are putting into this and I am sure many others will be thanking you as well!

I know that Gary sometimes reads this forum. I hope he does not think of me as " some kind of fruitcake ". I really do apologize, Gary, for what appears to be a shot at GPO itself. The software is awesome and I thank you for it. My problems using it are my own shortcomings.

Thank you, again, Mark.

Cheers,
Fred

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello Fred,

If Gary gets wind of this conversation, I don't think he'll have a problem with complaints that GPO itself offers MIDI controllers as its user interface, and not the actual graphical user interface, which is the job of the notation or MIDI sequencing program.

Why does GPO use the Mod Wheel for volume level? That's so that the user at the MIDI keyboard can, with a fairly high degree of dexterity, control the nuances of the volume curve of individual notes, in real-time, as he's recording, with the joy-stick on his MIDI keyboard. It's actually a lot of fun to control the volume level with the joy-stick, and generally much more useful than controlling modulation, the originally intended role of the joy-stick.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Clyde (clyde)]

Hi All,

Having made my complaints about GPO, I ought to say a few things in defense, for as Mark indicated above
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

GPO itself offers MIDI controllers as its user interface, and not the actual graphical user interface, which is the job of the notation or MIDI sequencing program. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

(a) Other similiar products to GPO suffer from the same non-musical interface. The idea of using (or abusing) the midi standard makes some sense as a means of communicating between musical instruments (in this case software musical instruments).

(b) Most software system comes in 'layers', with different people or systems being expert at a particular layer. In this current situation, GPO (along with many other packages) provide 'expert' sounds. But it is only one of the layers in the overall system. The layer that is missing (and Mark indicated he is working on) is the 'top' layer - the musicians interface.

(c) My reading of the glossy book that comes with GPO seems to indicate that the interface to GPO from other notation programs is at a very similiar level. Mark, who I am sure knows better than most of us, makes the comment above:
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

In fact, Composer already makes GPO easier to use than probably any other notation app<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I have worked for years as a computer systems designer/programmer in a manfacturing environment, and as it was the early days of computing (1970-2000) we were often on the leading edge of technology ('bleeding' edge as it was affectionately called). I think we are at that stage with GPO and similiar products. And we are doing a little 'bleeding' at present, but in a few years time (and with Composer hopefully leading the way) we will wonder what all the fuss was about.

What is exciting about being on the leading edge of technology is that we maybe able to influence the future, and experiment, 'throw in our twopennce worth' and help in the shaping of the musical interface. This forum provides, and Mark encourages our feedback, a way for us to do that in a non-threatening, respectful way, recognising that on occasions we will get it wrong, but hopefully enjoying the adventure together.

Cheers ... Clyde

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi

I think, it must be understandable, that there is disappointment. We had not been told that GPO and Composer do not quite line up. There should be no finger pointing or are apologies required. This would not be productive. I also think that everybody in this is most sincere. It will not do any harm if G G reads these posts.

Midi was originally used for live performances. It has never been a rigid standard. What we are doing now is to produce music with a PC only. It needs to work in a new way.

The graphical display and adjustment of midi controllers over the notation, is for me and I think for many users, a most attractive feature in Composer. Velocity is singled out for special treatment. I can only guess what goes on in the background in respect to absolute and relative values for velocity. It works well. Along come GPO and JABB, not respecting our ways. Perhaps there should be another option, permitting all midi controllers to be adjusted as velocity is. I prefer a system, where all controllers can be assigned all editing methods available. Composer would come with a midi template, a GPO template and other frequently used templates, to make live easy. Users could set up their own templates.

Sherry, I hope I have answered your request for clarification.

I will be watching now this space, to experience the “big bang”, when Mark releases all new features.

Best wishes,

Herbert

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello Herbert,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The graphical display and adjustment of midi controllers over the notation, is for me and I think for many users, a most attractive feature in Composer. Velocity is singled out for special treatment. I can only guess what goes on in the background in respect to absolute and relative values for velocity. It works well. Along come GPO and JABB, not respecting our ways. Perhaps there should be another option, permitting all midi controllers to be adjusted as velocity is.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>At first glance, this seems to be a good recommendation. However, there's a basic difference between note velocities and controller data. A note velocity is associated with a single note; whereas a controller applies to all notes currently sounding on the same channel. In order to apply separate controller values individually to each note, each note has to be on a separate channel.

Composer's velocity vectors and MIDI graphs say the same thing as the above paragraph: Velocity vectors are drawn individually for each note. Controller graphs are drawn across the entire staff of notes, assuming that that staff is assigned to one never changing channel. Note, that last assumption will no longer be true in the next major version of Composer that better supports GPO.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Mark,

What I was talking about was uniformity in methods for editing and in the display of graphs.

Velocity has a number, indicating the value where the action is. By pressing certain keys, the number increases or retards. This is an efficient way for setting the controller and the graph. This would be useful for all controllers.

My preferred method would be that on clicking and holding down the left mouse button above a point in a selected part of a graph, the value would rise and would be indicated near the point of focus. Clicking below the graph would do the opposite. Holding the mouse button down for a short time, would advance numbers slowly. Numbers would advance faster, as the mouse button is held down for a longer time. This could be used to move a strait line up or down. I know it can already be done in Composer by other means. But using the mouse, this could also be used to click on the left or right edge of the selection, to produce sloping lines, sloping either up or down, with values numerically indicated at either end of the selection. A further advance would be to have a selection of standard preset curved lines, including user created lines that can be placed into a selected area of any controller and pulled, pushed etc, to change its relative shape.

Can’t wait to see new and improved features of Composer.

Best wishes,

Herbert

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Herbert,

Just in case you have not yet found, your JABB may need to be updated. I never guessed that since I just got it on 12/25 that I would need an update from 2 years ago. It would have been nice if they had enclosed a note with the software that it has been sitting "on the shelf" for 2 years and needs the update. I found that out by downloading the pdf file explaining the udate and showing a picture of what it should look like. Thanks to Sherry's tip on that.
I still don't know if I need the update for GPO (2004). The pdf file for that update shows there are folders for "Wet" and "Dry" and the "Multi" folder shows about 30 selections. I have none of that, but I do have what they say are "new" instruments, such as "Full Strings" ( I have a "multi" folder but there are no instruments in it). So it is somewhat confusing. I'm concerned that if I download and install that 'update' in may end up as a "downdate". It sure would be a lot easier if they would only tell you what the h...l to do when you buy something!

Cheers,
Fred

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Fred,

Thank you for letting me know about the update situation. I did not know and will investigate.

Best wishes,

Herbert

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello GPO and JABB users,

There was some reference in the above discussion to MIDI controller #131 (cc131), which is referred to on p22 of the JABB PDF documentation. That led to the question: shouldn't Composer included controller #131 in its list of controllers in the graph tool?

Well, I was surprised about the existence of controller #131, because MIDI controller numbers only go up to 127.

I found a couple helpful statement in the Garritan forum:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

CC# 131 exists as a virtual controller on some M-Audio keyboards... To assign aftertouch to a slider with an M-Audio keyboard, you assign (using the keyboard functions, not doing anything in your DAW of JABB) CC#131 to that slider - I think this is just an M-Audio CC reference that doesn't really mean anything other than telling the M-Audio keyboard to transmit aftertouch information if that particular slider is moved.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>So, this controller #131 really is an M-Audio keyboard invention that is outside view of Composer or any other MIDI sequencing program. If you have an M-Audio keyboard that supports "virtual controller" numbers above #131, then you can take advantage of that feature, and reassign the virtual controller to any real honest-to-goodness MIDI control that you want to in the range 0-127 (well, really, only some of them). If you use the virtual controller #131 on your M-Audio keyboard in this way, that's totally you're little dance with the keyboard that Composer (or any MIDI program) will be unaware. Said another way, don't bother asking Composer to add cc131 support, because there is no such thing as cc131, as far as Composer or any other MIDI program is concerned.

Composer can't duck out of trouble completely here, though. JABB (and probably GPO, I don't know) uses the aftertouch "voice message" in MIDI. Aftertouch isn't a MIDI controller, just like pitch bend isn't a MIDI controller, even though it seems like it is one. That's why you don't find aftertouch and pitch bend in Composer's list of controllers. However, there is a problem here in Composer. It supports pitch bend with a special graph tool, but it doesn't (as it should) support aftertouch with a special graph tool. It's high on my list to add this aftertouch graph tool. Actually, it's already mostly done.

One more thing: controller 64. Controller 64 is the Sustain Pedal. Composer has a separate tool for sustain pedals, but according to the MIDI specs, which say that the sustain pedal value is only on or off, Composer only supports graphing of these two values on and off. Also, Composer does not currently list controller 64 in the generic list of controllers. I will fix this. I'll add controller 64 in the list of generic controllers; and the controller 64 graph will support any values, not just on and off. This will make Garritan users happy/ier.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello,

Here's an amendment to my post above, regarding controller 64 (sustain pedal), which is used for tongue and slur articulations in JABB (and I suspect also GPO, but I don't know that).

As best I can tell from the Garritan JABB documentation, JABB's use of controller 64 for tongue and slur articulations adheres to the MIDI spec that only on and off values are used, and nothing in between. So, I won't be changing Composer to support a range of values for controller 64 (sustain pedal).

If anyone finds that JABB or GPO really does want use use a full range of values for controller 64, and not just on/off values, then please let me know.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Fred,

I have just updated JABB and GPO.

This is my experience:
The update for JABB was simply a replacement of the library. Before, I had 9 items on the drop-down list of the load button of Kontak Player. Now I have 2 lines added: ”10 Lite” and “11 Place Holder”. Trying to update Kontakt Player of GPO had no effect. I assume, that I have had already the latest version. There appears to be an error in the version numbers of “1.18.003” in one case and “1.18.3”in the other case.

I Think, G G could improve on instructions for updating.

Best wishes,

Herbert

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Herbert,,
That's pretty much my experience, too with JABB. However, even thought I downloaded the update for GPO, I did not install the update. There were things showing in the update intruction file that were not showing the same way in my GPO. But I did have the instruments under the instruments tab, so I did not take the chance on installing it because I thought it might take me backwards instead. It is confusing.

BEst,
FRed

[John Smith (johnsmi)]

Hi All,



<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Fred said:
I still don't know if I need the update for GPO (2004). The pdf file for that update shows there are folders for "Wet" and "Dry" and the "Multi" folder shows about 30 selections. I have none of that, but I do have what they say are "new" instruments, such as "Full Strings" ( I have a "multi" folder but there are no instruments in it). <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

(That quote is from back up this thread away).

I was talking to someone the other day who said they'd got Version (or is it called "release" 2) of gpo and said more or less exactly what you have said Fred. (No inst in wet and nothing in multis). So I don't know if that version is a full thing or some kind of update. Strange if the .pdf say it has those things and it hasn't (so rumour has it anyway). Anyone know what's happened in V2 GPO then?

Cheers,
-Johnsmi

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Fred,

Margaret and I are very pleased to hear the good news. We offer our best wishes for Patsy’s health to return and for many years of a good life to follow, for both of you.

Yes, you are right; this forum is a very special place, with many good people being the heart of it.

See you at Mark’s party, when he makes the big money.

Best wishes,

Herbert

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Herbert and Margaret,

Thank you both for your best wishes. Patsy and I are tremendously appreciative of the support from everyone.

quote: "See you at Mark’s party, when he makes the big money."
>> I think he already has, but every time he makes $1 he puts $1.50 back in to make it better for all of us!

Take care,
Fred