GPO and MNC music contributions [Archive] - Notation Software Users Forum

John Smith (johnsmi)

10-23-2006, 11:56 AM

This is really a GPO problems I think but has some bearing on MNC music contributions sent in by composers to this forum.

I downloaded a MNC composition the other night intending to hear it play on GPO at the local college (where they have GPO). However it proved impossible to load the GPO orchestral sounds as GPO insisted on searching the entire disc drive (starting at Chttp://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif for the sound patches! Needless to say this would take hours to load. There seemed no way to tell GPO where the sound lib was! User created GPO templates work just fine. I wonder therefore if

a) This is a known problem (can't find anything on GPO forum)
and someone hear knows a workaround

b) Users sending in MNC composition could include the GPO template in their posts? (As I'd really like to hear their work).
Thanks
-John

ps I was thinking of buying GPO V2 and would like to use it with MNC but if this problem exists in V2 as well, it means I would be unable to use any GPO distributed templates :-( The thought of creating them all from the beginning does not appeal as I don't have the time.

Anyone using V2 and can tell me please?

pps I would ask on the GPO support but that seems only for registered users.

Sherry Crann (sherry)

10-23-2006, 01:08 PM

Howdy John,

That's really nice that you have a way to try out GPO before you buy it, but I can understand not wanting to wait for an hour to find the instrument library http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

So, do I understand correctly that if you have the .gpo or .studio file, that you can double click that file and get the GPO Studio to come up, fully loaded, and then play the file from Composer? Or the converse situation, that you start Studio, then start to load an instrument sound, and the computer starts searching and can't find anything?

I have GPO, and am using the version 2.0 Studio on my computer. I have 2 hard drives, and I have both the GPO library as well as the GPO Studio installed on the same hard drive (c: ), so I've not had the problem that you've experienced.
I don't see anything, either in the Studio to tell it where to look for the library, and it's been so long since my original installation that I don't remember if that's part of the install/setup process or not. Maybe someone else knows.

Another thought occurs to me, in that you may need to be sure you've got the GPO Studio running _before_ you start Composer. This isn't an issue for me on my computer since my initial setup, but not knowing what the setup is there, it may be an issue in your scenario.

Anyway, I think it's a very reasonable request that if someone creates a song file that they intend to use with GPO that they include the .gpo (v 1.x) or .studio (v 2.0) file to go with it. If the file is not included with a composition here on the forum, perhaps you could email that user directly, or post in that thread, requesting the GPO Studio file. It would be easy enough to send it to you or post it here on the forum.

You also said:
I was thinking of buying GPO V2 and would like to use it with MNC but if this problem exists in V2 as well, it means I would be unable to use any GPO distributed templates :-(

I'm not sure I understand why you wouldn't be able to use GPO distributed templates with Composer - I thought that part worked? Where am I confused?

ttfn,
Sherry

John Smith (johnsmi)

10-23-2006, 04:46 PM

Thanks for your reply/help.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

So, do I understand correctly that if you have the .gpo or .studio file, that you can double click that file and get the GPO Studio to come up, fully loaded, and then play the file from Composer? Or the converse situation, that you start Studio, then start to load an instrument sound, and the computer starts searching and can't find anything?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

The template files have suffix .gpo on this settup.
There is no problem getting GPO to work with MNC.
The problem is purely regarding GPO templates.
If I create a GPO template myself (start GPO studio etc and load the sounds) - then save the result as a .GPO file, then no problems. I can reload that file later and use it as a template for new or existing work.

However, if I try to load a .GPO template from the Garritan distribution files drive:\progFiles\garritan\studio\template (think that's correct path), then the problem starts. I can see the pulldown list of templates in Garritan (the distn ones that is), but, when I click to select one (any one of them), garritan fails to find any .wav files it needs to load up the player. It then offers me a chance to search the entire disc for the samples! If (being optimistic) I say Yes, it starts at C:. As there are several partitions this literally could take hours to do - and that search is per-sample-note I think!

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I have GPO, and am using the version 2.0 Studio on my computer. I have 2 hard drives, and I have both the GPO library as well as the GPO Studio installed on the same hard drive (c: ), so I've not had the problem that you've experienced.
<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Ah I see. In your case then I think it is ok because GPO starts with C: anyway. AFAIK there is no option I can set to tell GPO where it's own sample files are! Also the path shown in the wiindow is read-only so I cannot edit it to change the path. It could well be that the GPO has not been installed correctly I don't know, however as I have no control over that and didn't do the installation myself.

I could put together my own .gpo files but that seems a lot of work as they already exist.

Last night I found this on the GPO forum...
• INSTALL GPO ON THE DEFAULT DRIVE - Sometimes issues arise where it is being installed. To be safe it is recommended that GPO be installed on the default location which is usually the boot drive. IT may be easiest to do an "Easy Install" or install all listed components.

There is no way I could install like that on my system due to the sizing of various partition - plus I don't generally like major applications living on the boot drive anyway.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Another thought occurs to me, in that you may need to be sure you'vegot the GPO Studio running _before_ you start Composer. This isn't an issue for me on my computer since my initial setup, but not knowing what the setup is there, it may be an issue in your scenario<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I'm sure the start order is correct thanks.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Anyway, I think it's a very reasonable request that if someone createsa song file that they intend to use with GPO that they include the .gpo (v 1.x) or .studio (v 2.0) file to go with it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Yes maybe that could do asked for somehow from contributors? I don't know how - the board admin person could post something to this effect maybe? I find people tend to change the templates quite a bit anyway and it would be nice to be able to just down load an MNC piece and hear it straight away.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I'm not sure I understand why you wouldn't be able to use GPO
distributed templates with Composer - I thought that part worked?
Where am I confused?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Probably my less that clear initial post - I hope I've explained it a bit better here.

btw the MNC tutorial on the GPO site is excellent.

Thanks again,
-John Smith

Sherry Crann (sherry)

10-24-2006, 09:54 AM

Howdy John,

As far as I know, the distributed templates themselves are not copyrighted or anything like that, so you could (if possible on your system) simply copy them over to where the others are that you have (which work), and open them from there. It seems to be a matter of pathway, rather than that the templates themselves are "bad".

Are they both (GPO library and GPO Studio) installed in the same partition on this system? Perhaps double-clicking the template that you want to use might work?

My guess (though it's only that) is that wherever you install it, both the Studio and the Library have to be on the same hard drive (or in the same partition). I don't see any way to change it after the fact, so the installation would need to be done "right" the first time.

You might want to check the Kontakt site, too, since it's essentially their player.

ttfn,
Sherry

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-25-2006, 09:26 PM

Hi Sherry,
Wow! I really feel stupid. I can't get past the 1st page of the GPO Tutorial. I can't even bring up GPO Studio. When I installed the program I left all the check marks to load everything, but all I get when clicking on the GPO icon is the Kontakt Player and I can load instruments into it. None of the tutorial files listed in the tutorial with the file extension .gpo can be accessed to download. Not on Notation.com nor on garritan.com . Not only that but the kontakt player has horrible latency and I cant get that working correctly either. Help! Thanks a bunch.

Cheers,
Fred

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-25-2006, 09:27 PM

Hi again Sherry,
P.S. How do you open GPO STudio?
Fred

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-25-2006, 10:00 PM

Hi Sherry,
Oops! You can scratch most of the above. I got a little smarter and decided to read further. I did not know I had to download GPO STudio from the web site. I checked the box to include it when I installed GPO, but that wasn't enough. I now have Studio so I can go on further with the tutorial. However, I still can not download any of the .gpo files. My browser tells me the page does not exist. Thanks again!

Cheers,
FRed

Clyde (clyde)

12-25-2006, 10:07 PM

Hi Fred,

(Fred I was writing this when you found your own way - but I will send it anyway).

I found the the first thing to get going with GPO is just the Garritan software without the Studio. By the Garritan software, I mean you load the software, and when you click on the icon (it is an orange colour) you get ONE Knotatk Garritan Keyboard up.

http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/33214.jpg

Once you have got that, you have at least loaded the software. The next step is to test that. The steps for that are:

(a) Go to the 'Load' button on that Garritan Keyboard, and load any instrument. You will notice that the keyboard range for that instrument goes a grey-blue colour.

(b) Move the 'mod' wheel to about 50%.

(c) Click with the mouse on any note in the instrument range, and it should sound.

If this works, then you have got the Garritan software installed correctly.

The next major step is the GPO.

With tha version I have of GPO (which was over 12 months ago), you had to download the GPO separately from the Garritan web page:
http://www.garritan.com/downloads.html (For some reason they didn't put this on the CDs that came with the bulkbuy - that may have changed with the current release).

Anyway, once you have that installed, you should have another icon on your desktop. (This is a Black icon with a white conductor in it).

To test this you click on the icon and you get the Garritan Studio panel:

http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/33215.jpg

This allows you to open up 6 Keyboards.

Cheers ... Clyde

Clyde (clyde)

12-25-2006, 10:12 PM

Hi Fred,
About downloading those GPO files, I had the same problem, but your have to 'right click' on them and then do a 'Save Target as' and that will download them.

Hope that helps ... Clyde

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-25-2006, 10:35 PM

Hi Clyde,
Thanks for the help! I didn't know the Mod Wheel should be set to about 50%. I now have all the software, but I can't get to the page to download the files with the .gpo extension. This is what I get when trying to get to the page to download them:

This is the url given in the Tutorial:
www.notation.com/MidiNotateComposerGPOTutorialFiles/MidiNotateComposerGPOEx.gpo (http://www.notation.com/MidiNotateComposerGPOTutorialFiles/MidiNotateComposerGPOEx.gpo)

and this is the error the browser brings up:
"The XML page cannot be displayed
Cannot view XML input using style sheet. Please correct the error and then click the Refresh button, or try again later.

The system cannot locate the object specified. Error processing resource 'http://www.notation.com/MidiNotateComposerGPOTuto... "

I have no idea what "style sheet" is so therefore can not correct the error as they suggest.
I think I would be OK if I could download those .gpo file extensions.
Thanks again,
Fred

Clyde (clyde)

12-25-2006, 10:48 PM

Hi Fred,

The 'mod' wheel is actually the volume control, and this is one of the differences with GPO. So in your Composer scores, the first thing you need to do is to add a 'mod' wheel command to each channel you are sending out to GPO, otherwise it will sound very soft.

Mark has a very good section in the notes on GPO about how volume, loudness and the mod wheel all affect the end result. You need to be aware of this to get a good sound out of GPO - but you probably won't get that far today. The 50% I suggested is just for testing, otherwise you may not have heard anything when you did the simple test.

I'm puzzled that the right click on the GPO didn't work for you. This is what I get when I right click (no left click)on that same link:

http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/33217.jpg

Cheers ... Clyde

Clyde (clyde)

12-25-2006, 10:50 PM

Hi Fread,
Oops - my pictures used a PDF file, but the same thing happens on the GPO file:

http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/33219.jpg

Clyde

Sherry Crann (sherry)

12-26-2006, 02:04 AM

Hi Fred,

Clyde has you headed in the right direction. I'll have to take a look about the files that you can't access. We've been doing a lot of website work lately, and something may have gotten misplaced.

I think the Studio doesn't come on the CD because they have updated it a couple of times since the original version, and it may just be easier for them to keep the latest version on the server rather than burning copies to CD and then users having to update with a download anyway.

Also, you may want to periodically check the Updates page at www.garritan.com (http://www.garritan.com) (or Downloads, I think it's labelled), as they put updates to the libraries there occasionally, and as a registered user all updates to the libraries you own are free.

The mod wheel is not just a straight volume controller for Garritan libraries, it also encompasses the dynamics of an instrumentalist playing at a louder volume. So for a dynamic change (for example, an increase) with the mod wheel, you won't just get the same timbre of sound at a higher level of volume, you'll also get the dynamics of that louder sound - those differences are obviously unique for each instrument.

Play around with it just using the one Player for a while, to get a feel for what the different controllers can do for the performance of given instruments. With the "X Custom" instruments especially, there are controllers all over the place to adjust different aspects of the instrument performance. After just playing around with the controllers and hearing what they do, the Graphic Controls that Mark has incorporated for the various MIDI controllers will make it extremely easy to use them when you're putting together a score/performance in Composer.

You're in for a ton of fun http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

Clyde (clyde)

12-26-2006, 02:14 AM

Hi Sherry,
I think the problem with downloading the '.gpo' files is that the browser doesn't know what to do with it, and consquently tries to load it as a web page.

That is why it works if you do a right click and then a 'save target as', as you are telling the browser to simply copy it to your PC.

I think the best solution for the GPO notes is to put the '.gpo' file in a zip file, as the browser knows what to do with zip files (if you have an unzip program installed, which most people do).

(PS: I had the some problem with Fred several yseras ago, and I still have it, even though I reloaded my XP only last week. So I don't think it is confined to Fred's system).

Cheers ... Clyde

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-26-2006, 03:27 AM

Hi Clyde & Sherry,
Thanks for the concern you are showing for my problem. The .not files and the midi file downloads fine from the same location. However, a right click and 'save target as' results in a download of the file as an xml file. I've tried renaming it and downloading it from both loctations with same result. The xml file does me no good. I don't know that that is a problem using the software, but I would really like to use the tutorial so I know I am doing everything right. I'm uploading the file result to show you what I am getting. Thanks again!
Cheers,
Fred<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifgpo file (xml)
MidiNotateComposerGPOEx.xml (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/MidiNotateComposerGPOEx-33242.unk) (94.5 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-26-2006, 03:29 AM

THis is the error that pops up when trying to open the file:

The XML page cannot be displayed
Cannot view XML input using style sheet. Please correct the error and then click the Refresh button, or try again later.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The system cannot locate the object specified. Error processing resource 'http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/26888/gpo...

Fred

Clyde (clyde)

12-26-2006, 03:53 AM

Hi Fred,
I've downloaded the two GPO files in the document (I think there are only two), and put them together as a ZIP file, and attached to theis document.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/mime_zip.gifGPO_Files
GPO_Files.zip (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/GPO_Files-33247.zip) (109.0 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Hope that helps you.

Cheers ... Clyde

Sherry Crann (sherry)

12-26-2006, 05:08 PM

Howdy guys,

Thanks Clyde for zipping up those files and posting them here. That's a nicely-done workaround for folks who have trouble getting the .gpo files for whatever reason.

For Fred, did you rename your downloaded files before downloading, or after downloading? If your browser thinks it's smarter than you, and is renaming .gpo files to .xml as it's downloading them, then just rename it after. If I'm missing the whole point here, can you please give me a blow-by-blow description of what you're doing and what message it's giving you.

Also, what browser are you using? I'm using Firefox 1.5.0.9, and I love it. I have a variety of extensions that I've downloaded along with it that make web surfing and downloading files really easy. I see that Internet Explorer 7 has emulated the Firefox model quite heavily, which is a bit of a new way of doing things for MS. If you're using IE7, there may be some bugs with the download application(s) that need working out yet.

ttfn,
Sherry

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-26-2006, 07:40 PM

Hi Sherry,

I tried renaming the files after downloading them, but Windows would not let it happen. It continued to add the xml extension even after renaming the file. I am using IE6. One of my programs ( can/t remember which) advised not to download IE7 because there were issues that caused problems. I don't even remember what they were, but I just haven't downloaded IE7 because of remembering that. Anyway, the zipped files worked ok so I just got rid of the others.
Thanks for the help!
Cheers,
Fred

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-28-2006, 03:49 PM

Hi Sherry and everybody!

Can anybody tell me how to save a file in Composer that consists of both GPO instruments and general midi instruments? When I try to do it, the file saves and reverts everthing back to MS GW Wavetable device in the staff setup.
Also, both Audacity and the Windows Sound Recorder (which both record 'as heard by') will not record if GPO Studio is open. So far, the only thing I can save are wave files through GPO Studio where only GPO instruments are used on every staff. Thanks for any help!
\
Cheers,
Fred

Sherry Crann (sherry)

12-28-2006, 04:07 PM

Howdy Fred,

Hmm....

I just tried creating a file that used both GPO instruments as well as some soundfonts, saved the file, then reopened it in the same session. The Staff/Setup showed that the devices, banks and instruments were just as I had saved them. So I'm unable to reproduce your observation with the following steps:

1. Open an existing file (three instruments) and click Staff/Setup.
2. In the Staff Setup dialog, use the drop list to set the Device for the first staff to "GPO 1", and channel 1.
3. Set the Device for the other two staves to "SB Audigy 2 synth A", channel 2, 001 grand piano.
4. Click "Ok."
5. Use "File/Save as" to save the file with a different name than the original.
6. Close the song.
7. Reopen the song file and check Staff/Setup to check the Devices, channels, and instrument assignments. They're just as I saved them.

How do your steps differ from mine so as to produce the "non-saved settings" file?

Also, I've used Audacity to record "What you hear" when I use a mix of soundfonts and GPO (I've not tried out the Windows Sound Recorder). For my setup, I also have to be sure that the sound level slider for "What you hear" is all the way up - for some reason it seems to get set to 0 sometimes when working with GPO. You might want to check your soundcard settings.

Another recommendation for recording here is to use the ASIO driver ASIO4all (available at www.asio4all.com (http://www.asio4all.com)) It's free, and it makes getting all the ASIO information synchronized between your recording software and the GPO Kontakt player. It also will help you get any latency matching done much easier if you're using multiple devices.

I hope something here is helpful!

ttfn,
Sherry

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-28-2006, 04:59 PM

Hi Sherry,

quote:
I just tried creating a file that used both GPO instruments as well as some soundfonts, saved the file, then reopened it in the same session. The Staff/Setup showed that the devices, banks and instruments were just as I had saved them. So I'm unable to reproduce your observation with the following steps:

1. Open an existing file (three instruments) and click Staff/Setup.
2. In the Staff Setup dialog, use the drop list to set the Device for the first staff to "GPO 1", and channel 1.
3. Set the Device for the other two staves to "SB Audigy 2 synth A", channel 2, 001 grand piano.
4. Click "Ok."
5. Use "File/Save as" to save the file with a different name than the original.
6. Close the song.
7. Reopen the song file and check Staff/Setup to check the Devices, channels, and instrument assignments. They're just as I saved them.

How do your steps differ from mine so as to produce the "non-saved settings" file?

1. I did not try to save the file with a different name. I just tried to save it as a midi file with the same name.
2. My sound card is Realteck AC 97 Audio ( synth is MS GW Wavetable )

When trying to record the file using GPO, it will not record the general midi staves, only the GPO instruments.
When pressing the record button in Audacity and Sound Recorder ( to record what it hears) it tells me it can not record that type of file (or words to that effect) as long as GPO Studio is open. If the Studio is not open, you don't hear the GPO instruments at all.

As a side note, Windows Sound Recorder is a top notch wave recorder. It will only record 60 seconds however, unless you "trick" it into recording longer. I created a 10 minute wave file in Audacity (copying a smaller file and pasting it at the end a few times to make it 10 minutes long) then open the file in Sound Recorder and you can record up to 10 minutes ( or 10 hours if you want to copy and paste that many times...of course the file would be 8000 MB long instead of 80 MB).

I am going to try saving a file using a different name as you suggested above. Assuming that that works, would you then be able to hear the GPO instrument sound without having to open GPO STudio? Also, does it matter if the file is saved as midi or .not file?

Thanks again!
Fred

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-28-2006, 08:09 PM

Hi Sherry,

I saved the file as you instructed above, using 3 instruments. Saved it with a different file and name and it saved the file as desired. However, I also saved it with a different name as a midi file and it only worked in the current session. When I closed Composer and re-opened it and opened the midi file, the GPO staff reverted back to General Midi. That's puzzling.

As far as recording, Audacity and Sound And Record will not record with GPO Studio open.

In Audacity, the error states " Error while opening sound device. Please check the input device settings and the project sample rate" I can't see anything out of whack there.

In Sound Recorder, the error states " Your audio cannot record into files like the current file. To record, create a new document".

It's looking more and more like I made the biggest mistake of my life asking for GPO and JABB. If I am the only person who gets to hear the instruments, what good is it? If I write a piece with GPO instruments, at this point I would have to invite everyone to my house in order for them to listen to it. If it were possible to return software, I would do it in a heartbeat. I realize I may be the only person who is having these problems, but nonetheless, it is still very disappointing. I have 36 hours invested so far, and have gotten nowhere. If you could wave a magic wand over my head, I sure would appreciate it. Thanks again for all your help and any further suggestions.

P.S. I feel certain I could accomplish what I want if I use GPO or JABB instruments for every staff. At least GPO Studio would save the wave file and I could convert it to MP3 to save space. That would mean I would have to completely re-write everything with just one note in each staff. OH boy!

Cheers,
Fred

M G Jacobs (mgj32)

12-28-2006, 08:42 PM

Hi Fred,

I haven't installed Audacity on the new machine, but I just checked in Acoustica and it has a lot of recording source options. If you can set Audacity, or any other recorder, for wave as the source, it might be worth a try. Total Recorder has a set up where you can record from other software--it has its own recording engine--so you might get the free trial of that, too. (It was only about $11 to buy and has them all beat). Worth a try.

Since you get a failure to open sound device, I'm just guessing that you might need a different source. But, again, it shouldn't hurt anything to give it a go.

Goooood Luck and lots of it,

best,
mgj

Sherry Crann (sherry)

12-28-2006, 09:06 PM

Howdy Fred,

Ah - you won't be able to save the device configuration in the MIDI file as it's not part of the MIDI format. The device setup that you give a file is only saved in the .not version of the file.

As for the recording difficulties, you'll need to be sure that all your driver bit rate settings are in agreement, or you won't be able to record. It is a bit of work at first to make sure that everything is all set up in the proper "agreement" configurations, but well worth the time spent. The two biggest factors are the (1) bit depth and (2) sampling rate. These two parameters have to be in agreement, or your recording either won't work at all, or it will sound really bizarre. 16 bit is the CD standard, and a sampling rate of 44,100 Hz is pretty universal for most "hobbyist" audio recording setups.

You'll need to set your recording software as well as the output on the Studio player for JBB and GPO (Settings/Audio driver) to those parameters.

If you want to do some reading, you can google "audio computer record primer" and browse through some of the docs that come up there.

Don't despair Fred - it'll be worth it when you get the setup running!

ttfn,
Sherry

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-28-2006, 09:40 PM

Hi MG,

I'll have to check them both out (Acoustica and Total Recorder). My Audacity has not been able to record since last year when my computer crashed and I had to re-install Windows XP (SP2) and then a second time a few months ago had to do the same thing. It was fine before that. I can only use Audacity now to open a wav file and export it as MP3. The Windows Sound recorder would record everything including a fly landing on my head, but it will not even try with GPO open. You would think that for the price they should be more compatible. Thanks for the suggestions! I won't give up, I'll just keep cryinghttp://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-28-2006, 09:49 PM

Hi Sherry,

Thanks for the suggestions! I never had a problem with Audacity before my computer crashes. (Windows XP SP2 with all the updates available) May be something there. When I upgraded to Windows Media Player 11, it muted my Wave volume every time I played a midi file in it. I finally uninstalled it and rolled back to Windows Media Player 9 and now there are no problems. They should change the word update to screw-up!
I went into Audacity and clicked on every "16" I could find, including my agehttp://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif. Would it be possible to send me screen shots of the important dialog boxes for preferrences in Audacity that you have your's set to? That could be big help, even though we may have different sound cards or Operating Systems. It could give me some idea where something may not look right in mine.
Thanks again for your help! I know I am a cry baby. You should hear me when I hit my finger with a paper clip.

Cheers,
Fred

Clyde (clyde)

12-28-2006, 09:56 PM

Hi Fred,
I haven't been following the thread in detail, but I noticed you indicated that you couldn't get Audacity to record.

I use Audacity often to do that, but it has to be recording the right source, and I found that if I need to use it to record Composer playing then that has to be the stereo mix:

http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/33290.jpg

This (I think) is recording everything that goes through your card, so you need to be careful about having other programs running at the same time which will put a 'beep' through your sound card (eg like Outlook Express when some mail arrives). A downside of doing it this way is that Audacity will record the 'electrical noise' in your system as well.

By the way, I have often done what you are asking here, trying to combine the output from two sources (in my case it was Roland VSC-3, and Virtual singer (a simulated voice)). I used a useful program from Goldwave called 'Multiquence' to combine wave files (and you can shift them in time to line up the wave files) - see http://www.goldwave.com/ . There maybe better and cheaper programs, but mine is one of the early versions and it was cheap then.

Cheers ... Clyde

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-28-2006, 10:05 PM

Hi all,

Just to give you some idea what is in store if I have to re-arrange everything using GPO. I just split the drum staves in Funky Salsa. That produced 36 drum lines. Now can I get a "Aw, you poor thing"? http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
Oh goody! I just realized if I did that in the drum and bugle corps thing it would produce 216 drum lines!

Cheers,
Fred

Sherry Crann (sherry)

12-28-2006, 10:21 PM

Howdy Fred,

For the above mentioned parameters to set in Audacity, they're located in Edit/Preferences, where you'll see a tabbed dialog box with a lot of various options. The first three tabs - Audio IO, Quality, File formats - are the ones of most importance.

Also, as Clyde points out above, you'll need to be recording the correct source, and that source listing as he shows above varies depending on the sound card that is in your computer. For Clyde, it's "stereo mix", for me it's "What you hear". You'll need to check your options there, which will be specific to your soundcard.

Then, after you've got the ASIO4All driver installed use the GPO/JBB Studio (Settings/Preferences) to set the sample rate. Then, use the Studio's "Settings/Preferences/Audio Control Panel" to setup the ASIO4All driver parameters.

I know it sounds like a lot of stuff, but essentially what you're doing is just making sure that all the links in the chain are speaking the same language (bit depth and sampling rate). After you've got that all set up, you should be in business.

ttfn,
Sherry

Clyde (clyde)

12-28-2006, 10:33 PM

Hi Fred,
One of the interface 'difficult' areas with GPO is its requirement that every different voice needs to be on a separate midi channel.

That is nothing to do with Composer, but a GPO requirement, and it is understandable as GPO's origins are in orchestral music where there is one instrument per stave (eg violin, cello etc). I have found with GPO a similiar problem with their organ sounds, that to change sounds requires a new midi channel, which means a new stave.

In another thread, I have been suggesting to Mark (and he agrees) that the interface these packages needs to be enhanced to make it easier to overcome these types of issues.

And these issues are in no way confined to GPO - every sound source package that I have used works differently and has another set of equally annoying issues.

Cheers ... Clyde

Clyde (clyde)

12-29-2006, 12:48 AM

Hi Fred,
Just to illustrate that GPO and other software sound packages have their 'labour intensive' features, I have several organ packages, and they each have similiar problems:

(a) One organ packages requires a separate stave for each stop (almost impossible to use because of this)
(b) Another one requires notes be held down for the period that stops are drawn (ie each note on a separate channel indicates a stop is drawn, and if you want to have a stop drawn, then a certain note representing that stop is played - which can be for the whole piece). Again this is almost impossible to use, fortuantely there is a way around it, although it does impose some restrictions.
(c) Another organ package requires Modulator wheels be used for stop changes, each stop given a value of modulator wheel 81 to turn it on, and modulator wheel 80 to turn it off. Again, very hard to use, and the score is hard to read to see what is going on.

So don't feel too bad about the effort you need to use to drive GPO - and I'm sure sometime in the future interfaces to these things will be a lot better (at least I hope so).

Incidentally, I'm interested that it was necessary to do this with the GPO Jazz package, as I was wondering what they would do in this area.

Cheers ... Clyde

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-29-2006, 01:56 AM

Hi Sherry, Clyde and MG,

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I am totally unable to get any recorder to work with GPO. I took MG's suggestion and downloaded "Acoustica". I like the recorder better than Audscity, but that won't record with GPO open either. It gives me the same error message as Audacity. Everything will record Composer or any other sounds "as heard", but as soon as I open GPO they turn their noses up. There is nothing I can't record. I am not new to using Audacity. I have used it successfull for over a year without incident. I just uninstalled and downloaded an earlier stable version and that did no good either. Yes, I need to use "stereo mix" as the source also. One thing that Acoustica added to the possible problem list was that the device may be in use by another program. It's not.
There are 48 processes running on my computer but nothing is using a lot of CPU. That ranges from 2% to 3 or 4%. I have no idea what processes I can safely end. Who knows what the processes are? You sure can't tell by looking at the file names ( except for a few ). Maybe I'll get brave one day and try ending a few at a time to see if that helps. The parameters (as far as I can tell) are in agreement 44,100Hz and 16 bit depth on everything. There could be a problem in ASIO4all. My sound card is accepted fine and the "Out" shows available, but the in is "unavailable" . I've tried everything sourceforge recommends there also, but can't get that the way it should be either. I'm thinking of not using the ASIO4all driver, but I don't know what to expect if I don't use it. If I don't get this thing straightened out, I will have to use GPO instruments only. That would take an immense amount of work. My son gave me those programs for Christmas. I don't know how to tell him they are not working for me. He lives right next door so I can't tell him what a wonderful time I am having. He's sure to want to hear it. All I wanted to do was just add a few GPO instruments to each of my files and record them with a nicer sound. Using GPO for everything would make the files huge to say the least. I wouldn't have enough hard drive space left to write a 2 sentence letter. Oh well, if anyone can get me straight, I sure would appreciate it! Thanks again.
Cheers,
Fred

P.S. My son just walked in and, being the honest guy I am, I had to tell him and explain my problems. He said "Dad, I'm 47 years old so I can safely say that over the last 47 years I have never seen you not accomplish what you wanted to accomplish. You'll figure it out and then it will all be easy". What a winner!

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-29-2006, 02:58 AM

Hi again all,
Here is something interesting that may shed some light on my problem. (although I have no idea what to do about it)
The Acoustica Recorder I downloaded (trial version) has a dialog box under "preferences" with a small box that says:
"Some sound cards do not support simultaneous recording and playback. This will not matter if you are playing sounds from another sound card". Below that statement is a "Test" button.
With GPO Studio NOT loaded, pressing the test button states "Sound card supports full duplex"
Opening GPO STudio and pressing the test button again states "Sound card FAILED full duplex test".
Closing GPO Studio and pressing the test button again, the message then reads "Sound card supports full duplex". So there is definitely something wrong only in GPO. Any ideas?
Thanks again,
Fred

M G Jacobs (mgj32)

12-29-2006, 07:03 AM

Hi Fred,

And I thought I had sound card woes! I may not have the technological expertise to grasp what is going on, but I assure you I feel your pain. It may even be that I have a glimmer of what the problem may be.

First, though, what you said about being out the money may not be necessarily so. I have seen a 30, and sometimes 60 day money back provision for all the software I've purchased. So you may be able to take heart about that.

Something you said in your last couple of posts brought a tsunami of things I'd rather not remember crashing in. When I got this machine, it had Audigy HD Audio powered by a Sigmatel on-board chip. It defaulted to Microsoft's GS Wavetable Software synth, but also had a Creative Soundfont synth, with which I could use soundfonts.

I had a horrid and very depressing time trying to get a sound card (that is the physical card you have to put in a slot in the computer) to work at all, even though I disabled the Sigmatel chip in the BIOS set up, which the Dell techies assured and re-assured then re-re-assured me was all I had to do. I wanted the sound card, btw, because I wanted to have more than 16 channels and the card has 2 hardware synths which allow up to 32 channels. And also because I got messages similar to yours when I tried to record. In fact, no recorder would give me the what you hear or midi synth option to start with. And the sound quality wasn't very good to begin with.

Finally, I not only disabled the on-board audio in the BIOS setup, but I deleted every thing that had anything to do with audio before re-installing the sound card. Finally, the card would work and I have good sound and can record using midi synth and what you hear. I also have to set volume levels down at under 50% to keep Soundblaster from living up to its name. And I have only one hardware Synth, though there are 2, that I can use without crashing the computer; so while I can have up to a couple of gigabytes worth of soundfonts on that, I still have only 16 channels available.

Anyhow, I feel your pain acutely. What I am wondering is whether your computer has an on-board chip powering your audio. Your lack of options for recording sounds like the same situation I had with the Sigmatel chip. Neither I nor the Dell techies found any way to be able to record from Composer, or any software for that matter.

My rage when I think about all this still increases my vituperative vocabulary to a level that even Shakespeare would have envied. My wife used to wonder why steam was rising from my hair and smoke was billowing from my ears.

However, there are consolations.

One is that, as long as I can get everything into 16 channels, I can use soundfonts. There are a lot of them out there and I have been able to cull some very good ones for a number of instruments. So far I have only looked at freebies, but I imagine some of those that are for sale might be even better. So far I have found a violin, cello, tuba, clarinet, flute, and a lot of percussion instruments that sound as much like the real things as is probably possible. As long as I need only 16 channels, I can record directly from Composer, then use Acoustica as described in the next paragraph.

Then there is Syntfont which lets you replace GM instruments with any soundfont located in any folder on your computer, and it gives you 32 channels, then play it to a .wav or .mp3 file. The file can be loaded into Audacity or Acoustica and reverb, chorus, graphic equalizer, stereo enhancement, etc. effects applied. (Synthfont is donationware.)

There is also VST, which I don't begin to understand, and haven't had time to explore yet.

The trouble with Synthfont is that to make changes, Composer has to reloaded, the changes made, then Synthfont has to be loaded and the changes tried out, then if there are more changes, etc., etc. Also, Synthfont has dropouts when maximum true polyphony reaches 100.

Also, Mark has said somewhere in the Forum that a version of Composer is in the works which will allow more than 16 channels and use soundfonts, which would get rid of the necessity of switching programs to make every change. (Some things, like volume, pan, etc. can be changed in Synthfont, but a crescendo can't be added or modified, for instance.)

So, although you may not get quite the sound of GPO instruments, as long as your card or chip can use soundfonts and you can use Audacity to make recordings and work with effects, you should be able to get the kind of sound that is close to what you want. And probably in a much simipler fashion.

So take heart. One way or another, you will get there.

all best,
mgj

PS. If you'd be interested, I could make and send you an .mp3 file in which first I'd play the MS Wavetable SW synth instrument and then a more realistic soundfont that I've found. You can hear the vast difference even in the raw recording; then you could load it into Audacity and experiment with the application of effects. Although I have a system which is still far from right, it would give you an indication of what is nonetheless possible.

Herbert WENDE (herbert)

12-29-2006, 12:55 PM

Hi Fred

I know exactly how you feel. David has expressed the frustrations well.

I have had no problems so far starting up JABB and GPO, which I received yesterday. Perhaps it helps, if I tell you about my experience.

In connection with Composer, I use Realtec AC97 Audio as you do. I have a different setup for Cubase which does not matter here. I use a small audio mixer to connect the PC and a sound system and for mixing and recording other sources. This should not matter either. I use a low cost audio editor from www.goldwave.com (http://www.goldwave.com), which I highly recommend for its many necessary and excellent features required for any serious audio recording.

I installed JABB, GPO and Garritan Studio.

1. Open Garritan Studio.
2. Click on the first of eight groups. Kontakt Player comes up.
3. Select the instruments.
4. Open your file in Composer.
5. Under Device select GPO Studio or what ever you wish.
6. Under Channel select the channel as per your Garritan Studio choice.

I used both, General Midi and GPO instruments in the same file. It all worked well for me, including recording to Goldwave.

Best wishes for your endeavor,
Best wishes for a successful and prosperous New Year,

Herbert

Herbert WENDE (herbert)

12-29-2006, 01:04 PM

Hi Fred

It should have been mgj has expessed his frustrations well

Herbert

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-29-2006, 06:22 PM

Hi Sherry, MG, Clyde, and Herbert

This forum is incredible. I thank all of you for your help and your concern for my problem. I am beginning to think my problem may me simpler to solve than it looks. When my wife tells me "the coffee pot doesn't work", I don't dare ask her if she plugged it in, I'll simply plug it in myself and tap it on the top and say "gee look, something must have been loose, it's working again". However, I'm a little different. It's okay to ask me if I plugged it in.http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

The big question of the day is: Is it absolutely necessary to use ASIO4all as the driver? Since re-insalling Windows XP with all the upgrades and updates, something that was present before may be missing. I've tried everything to get Audacity, Synthfont, and ASIO4all to be absolutely correct to no avail. It is only the recording ability I can't get to work. (Synthfont just sounds horrible, but it will function) Audacity plays back beautifully and performs every other function except record. I believe The ASIO driver may be my problem. Here is a screen shot of ASIO4all.

http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/33338.gif

As you can see, the "In" device is unavailable, also the Pins are no longer shown. If I instead selected Realteck AC97 as the driver, what kind of problems would that cause? There are options besides ASIO. But would using a different driver give me undesired results?
If I do this, the options in GPO Studio driver tab are Direct Sound-Realtek AC97 Audio_1, and MME- Realtek AC97 Audio. The options under GPO and BABB under routing tab show Realtek AC97 Audio_1 thru Audio_8. The options under Soundcard tab in GPO are ASIO, Direct Sound, and MultiMedia. Also under GPO Midi Tab I don't know what to turn on or what to turn off. Any help here would be huge. Thanks again for all your concern!!

Cheers,
Fred

M G Jacobs (mgj32)

12-29-2006, 08:02 PM

Hi Fred,

Do all the recorders on your computer have a Device Settings option? I just noticed that in Acoustica it gives me only two options for playback and recording. One is the Audigy 2 Zs and the other is modem line, or somesuch. I think that one or the other was set for modem line when I first got it and I had to set them both for the Audigy 2 Zs. Maybe this is worth a look.

best,
mgj

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-29-2006, 08:28 PM

Hi MG,

Yes, they all have options for playback and recording. The two options I have are Realtek AC97 Audio and Default Wave Device. Playback and recording are both set to Realtek AC97 Audio. Thanks!
Cheers,
Fred

Herbert WENDE (herbert)

12-29-2006, 11:20 PM

Hi Fred

I have set the driver in Garritan Studio to “Windows Direct Sound-RealtecAC97Audio_1”. The software also has a record function on its Host Application. This function only records the Garritan instruments playing in Composer, but not any GM instruments, you might also use in the same song.

What is really needed here is a function in Composer that exports a .not file to a .wav file.

Best wishes

Herbert

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-30-2006, 12:01 AM

Hi Herbert,

quote:

What is really needed here is a function in Composer that exports a .not file to a .wav file.

I'll second that!!!

Thanks for letting me know if I select AC97 Audio in GPO my machine won't crash http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-30-2006, 12:39 AM

Hi again, Herbert

Using Direct Sound- REaltek AC97 Audio_1 as the driver, are you able to record "as heard" into any recorders (Audactity, Acoustica,etc.) with a mixture of GPO and General Midi instruments? That's the only problem I'm having. Thanks again!

Cheers,
FRed

Herbert WENDE (herbert)

12-30-2006, 03:42 AM

Hi Fred

I have had another look at my hardware setup. The main difference of what I have here and what you may have is a small hardware mixer I am using. By using the mixer, I am feeding “Line Out” of the PC back into “Line In”. It works well enough, but may not help you. It would be far better, to have a software solution, rather than conversions of the music file via analog in the sound card.

By this method you can always record what you hear.

Best wishes,

Herbert

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-30-2006, 02:06 PM

HELLO WORLD!!

YAAAAHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

After 49 hours of pain and misery, my recorders now work with GPO open!!!!

Obviously, trying to use ASIO4all was causing the problem. I switched to Direct Sound:Realtek AC97 Audio_1 for the driver. THANK YOU HERBERT!

I just successfully recorded into both Acoustica and Sound Recorder. It not only removed the conflict, but has totally eliminated a latency problem as well. I don't mean to "dis" ASIO, the problem is more than likely unique to something in my computer. ASIO, Audacity and Sythfont all seem to be affected by the same problem. I have had recording problems with Audacity for over a year, and sound problems with Synthfont for the same period. I can only surmise that the first computer crash and subsequent system recovery was the start of it all. More than likely, there is something in my registry that has been changed by one of the 14 million updates or something is missing that is needed. Since this is my second new computer in only 3 years, it will be a while before I can trash this one and start from scratch. It looks like that will be my only option. All I need to do now is win the lottery.

AT least now, I can start enjoying GPO and BABB and get on with the learning process and better things. But don't breath a sigh of relief just yet...I expect to be back with a few hundred questions that all will begin with the words "how do I...?" http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred

Sherry Crann (sherry)

12-30-2006, 02:35 PM

Howdy Fred,

Congratulations!!!!

And now you can send someone up here to the beanfield to flog that crazy chick who was so all-fired gung-ho about using Asio4All ;)

Enjoy using GPO and JBB - I think you're in for a blast!!

ttfn,
Sherry

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-30-2006, 04:12 PM

Hi Sherry,

Thank you and thanks for all the help. I don't think ASIO4all is a problem for anyone else unless they have the same situation i had. However, as a further update:

1. Synthfont is now also working much better. I eliminated ASIO4all there also and that solved my sound problem.
2. Audacicty is about half way there. I am able to record but I still have some echo there. I have to set my recording volume to less than 1.0 (about 0.5) and my playback volume to 3.0 to get the best I can get. I'm sure there are settings or tweaks that can be done there to get rid of the echo, but like ASIO, Audacity's help file leaves a lot to be desired and both their web sites and their forums are almost totally useless. If I was the guru that they expect you to be to start with, I wouldn't need them. Thank God for Composer's forum and the people here!!
You know what we've got to do? We need to have a big party at Mark's house (being from Baltimore, I'll bring the crabcakes) so we could all meet each other personally and have a real blast. When Mark announces he has become a millionaire, we could get him to pay for all the plane tickets! http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred

Sherry Crann (sherry)

12-30-2006, 04:35 PM

Howdy Fred,

That's great that things are working better all round.

For the echo in Audacity, you might want to check the Preferences settings (under Edit, of all places), and fiddle with the "play while recording setting" to see how that affects any "echo" you hear.

ttfn,
Sherry

M G Jacobs (mgj32)

12-30-2006, 06:06 PM

Hi Fred,

Wheeeee! You must feel like dancing a jig about now.

Did you actually get more volume for the same settings? I don't remember just when that happened to me, but I do remember eliminating ASIO somewhere along the line.

Don't forget to write down that jig.

all best,
mgj

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-30-2006, 07:20 PM

Hidey Ho! MG,

>>>Wheeeee! You must feel like dancing a jig about now.

Are you kidding me? RIVERDANCE has already contacted me and offered me a contract!

You just gave me an idea for my next song, "Funky Jig" http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif.
Not only that, but Sherry just got me straightened out with Audacity!!! Plus: Maryland won the Champs Bowl last night ,and the Ravens look good enough to end up in the Super Bowl..so I am having one he... of a nice day! Thanks again for all your help.

Cheers,
Fred

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-30-2006, 07:38 PM

Hi again, Sherry

>>>For the echo in Audacity, you might want to check the Preferences settings (under Edit, of all places), and fiddle with the "play while recording setting" to see how that affects any "echo" you hear.

Aha! That did the trick. I unchecked "Software Playthrough- Play new track while recording it". I left the 'Play other tracks while recording new one' checked. I had to fiddle a long time with various volumes, but the best I could get it is with playback set to 0.7 and record set to 0.1. Now the spectograms are NEARLY identical. The newly recorded track is exactly 0.35285 seconds behind the original track. I guess that explains the horrible echo when trying to record . I don't think it's a coincidence that the latency with my AC97 Audio is 35MS. hmmm! Anyway, I think there is a way to line up those two tracks, but it isn't a necessity because I don't need them to be together to record the new track by itself.

Thanks again!
Fred

Herbert WENDE (herbert)

12-31-2006, 03:25 AM

Hi Fred

I am really happy for you, now that you are progressing with recording GPO.

I fear, there will be more hurdles to overcome. The Modulation Wheel seems to have problems in relation to the volume level after playback has started in Composer.

I have to correct something I have said yesterday. You do not need an external hardware mixer, to record composer with the Goldwave Sound Editor. You just select Stereo Mix as your source. There are no echoes or any other problems.

What do you mean, when you say that the newly recorded track is exactly 0.35285 seconds behind the original track? I do a lot of recording, cutting, splicing, mixing converting etc. I never had a problem with lining up tracks precisely.

Your idea of a party at Mark’s place is excellent. Please put me down on the invitation list and for free plane tickets for two.

Best wishes,

Herbert

Herbert WENDE (herbert)

12-31-2006, 10:23 AM

Hi Fred

The problem I had with the Modulation Wheel, was easily fixed. The Modulation Wheel needs to be set to an initial value in Composer’s GraphOverNotes. This is all explained in Mark’s tutorial on GPO.

Best wishes,

Herbert

Fred Winterling (harbor1)

12-31-2006, 03:47 PM

Hi Herbert,
Thanks for all the suggestions. They were a great help.

>>>What do you mean, when you say that the newly recorded track is exactly 0.35285 seconds behind the original track? I do a lot of recording, cutting, splicing, mixing converting etc. I never had a problem with lining up tracks precisely.

Just that the newly recorded track shows the beginning and eding of the track that far behind the original track above it in Audacity. I know I can cut and paste it to line up, but I would only have a need for that if I were adding vocals to the original file. If I play back both files together, the latency is noticeable. So I just close the original file and export the new file as wav or mp3.

I know about having to set the modulation wheel in Composer. I have to set mine pretty high. I can also see that a lot more editing is going to be necessary in GPO tracks. Before GPO, I used the modulation wheel to add tremelo to various instruments ( as in my arrangement for the trumpets in America The Beautiful). It looks like I'll need to use another control for that in GPO tracks. I am in the incubator stage at this point. That's the stage that asks " what the heck does that mean?" It's tough to edit already existing files. So much has to be changed. Listening to what others have done with GPO, however, makes it appear worth it. Thanks again for your help. BTW, I put you down for 2 free plane tickets!http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred