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Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-07-2005, 05:10 PM
Ok, I probably scared everyone off with my unedited improvisation in the Contemporary Classical section. I'll get back to it later, after I add some metronomeless transcription support in Composer.

I improvised the following short piece several years ago when I was doing some usability testing on Composer's recording feature. I improvised one track at a time (with a metronome), layering up different sounds as I went.

The style is sort of that of a soundtrack for a space adventure movie. This isn't a style I usually work with (nor is the style of the AmericanProkofieff improv in the Contemporary Classical section a style I usually work with).

The piece is really just a demo, not a convincingly complete piece.

This is the original improvisation:
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStars.not
stars.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/stars-26972.not) (65.3 k)</td></tr></table></center>

This is a cleaned up version of the piece:
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStars12.not
stars12.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/stars12-26973.not) (61.2 k)</td></tr></table></center>

This is a MIDI orchestration, not one written out for real acoustic instruments. I also have a "real" orchestral version of this, that uses the Garritan Peronsal Orchestra (GPO) sound library.

This Stars piece is open for criticism. I don't have a strong personal attachment to it, although I do consider one of the better of the short pieces I banged out using Composer. For purposes of critique, please refer to the cleaned up version (Star12.not) rather than the original improvisation, which I submitted so you could see what I did to turn the improv into a short piece.

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-07-2005, 05:48 PM
Howdy Mark,

This is a fun piece (as was the Prokofiev one, albeit in a different way ;) ).

I like the way you interweave various rhythmic figures for some of the ascending passages. I also noticed that you don't use any controllers or graphing capabilities to get variations in dynamic - they're all done with just the "loudness" of the notes, and the way your rhythmic figures work together to achieve a crescendo feel. That's a great way to use simple tools to get a rich effect.

Would it be possible to acquire your GPO version? The only thing that I can think of for this piece (and this is probably because I play bass http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif ) is that it seems to lack a bit of bottom end. I do see that you have one set of brass in the bass end of things, but their relative loudness (as judged by ear and the "note loudness" graphic) is not as loud as the rest of the instruments. It may just be the setup that I'm using to listen to it, and that perhaps if I use the GPO setup, that may be more present. Even just a sort of sustained very low fundamental note might be enough to broaden it out a bit. But that's also just personal taste, coming from someone who plays bass at church every week http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif You may have been shooting more for the stratosphere and beyond effect ;) Well achieved!

Thanks for sharing this with us!
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-07-2005, 06:31 PM
Hi Sherry,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I also noticed that you don't use any controllers or graphing capabilities to get variations in dynamic - they're all done with just the "loudness" of the notes, and the way your rhythmic figures work together to achieve a crescendo feel. That's a great way to use simple tools to get a rich effect.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Actually, the "tool" is just my fingers on the MIDI keyboard. I achieve the large MIDI note velocities by, no surprise, playing the notes louder on the keyboard. This should work for the "Sherry method" of composing. When you record the rhythms of notes, temporarily ignoring their pitches, you can also control the loudness of the notes as you play them. Then later, you only need to change the pitches-- both the rhythms and the loudnesses of the notes will be what you want, or at least what you recorded.

Here is the GPO version of the piece and the corresponding .GPO file:

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStars18.not
stars 18 GPO.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/stars_18_GPO-26981.not) (85.5 k)</td></tr></table></center> <center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/mime_txt.gifStars18GPO.gpo
stars 18 GPO.gpo (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/stars_18_GPO-26982.txt) (82.1 k)</td></tr></table></center>

I'm getting some horrible distortions when I play this through GPO Studio here. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I suspect I may have maxed out the volume levels applied to the samples. Do you get the same distortion? (It's not subtle.) If so, do you know how to fix it?

Cheers
-- Mark

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-07-2005, 06:38 PM
P.S. Sherry,

If you can get this piece to sound right on GPO Studio, feel free to explore adding some meat in the bass. We could make this piece a collaborative effort. I don't have any strong feelings about ownership of this piece.

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-07-2005, 08:04 PM
Howdy Mark,

Wow - thanks for the offer of tinkering with your creation http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif I'll trade you some bass stuff in this one for a screaming piano solo in Dadzilla http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif (seriously!)

I took a quick listen with the GPO version, and it sounds really nice! I didn't get any distortion at all, though it is quite loud compared to my usual settings.

I'm hearing some tympani and some other low double bass stuff in my head as I listened to it (no voices, though ;) ). I'll meditate on it a bit while I'm outside soaking up some warmth, and perhaps try to put something into it tonight or tomorrow.

ttfn,
Sherry

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-07-2005, 08:09 PM
Howdy,

I also meant to comment on your "tool" http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Using the touch sensitivity settings on my new-to-me keyboard is one thing I'm working on. I simply didn't have that option before with my old Casio, so it's almost like a new tool for my fledgling keyboard skills. I vary my attack on my guitar and bass all the time, but I haven't been able to do it with keyboard before. I've always had to go in manually and edit note loudnesses graphically. Flexibility is fun!

ttfn,
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-07-2005, 10:03 PM
Hi Sherry,

Could you email me a WAV or MP3 of the GPO version of Stars? I'd like to hear whether my GPO Studio setup somehow is producing a different sound.

That will be fun if you add some bass to this Stars piece.

When you first invited us to contribute to Dadzilla, I tried out some harmonica licks. The task was problematic because the MIDI version of Dadzilla doesn't have the vocals. I didn't want a secondary harmonica part interfering with the vocals, and definitely not interfere with the delightful giggles of your kids.

When you're exploring touch sensitivity with your keyboard, try using GPO sounds, as they are generally do more than loud/soft; they also add more expression by changing the shape of the sound envelop.

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-07-2005, 10:29 PM
Howdy Mark,

I'll email you an MP3 of it, but let me explain it first http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I tried recording the playback with the settings just as you had them, and when I looked at the audio waveform (I'm using my Creative Wave Studio), it was really maxed out, which is probably why you were hearing distortion. So I then adjusted the volume slider in Composer Pro down to about 1/3 (as opposed to the 1/2 setting it was at for the first recording) and recorded it again. The waveform was much better this time, and everything was clear, so this is the mp3 I'm sending you in a separate email.

I'm a bit anxious now to add some timpani and double bass to fill it out a bit, yet retain the feel that you have given the piece. This should be fun!

As for the Dadzilla song, that's a good point about not having the vocals - I'll try to get a version done that has at least the notes in the right places so that you (or anyone else) can work around them. I can't replicate the giggles, though - those were free-form http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif When I recorded the giggles, I actually recorded them as just little snippets that I could add in at will (using Cubasis) - the kids got so tickled when I was trying to record them "in place", that they invariably got too giggly to make any sound! A harmonica solo would be sweet, as I've found a really nice harmonica soundfont that sounds extremely good. I've tried it out a little, and it's extremely promising! I found it on the HammerSound soundfont site.

And thanks for the tip about practicing the touch sensitivity aspect of my keyboard - GPO is a delight to use for anything, and much more so since it offers more dynamic variety.

ttfn,
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-07-2005, 11:05 PM
Hi Sherry,

Thanks for experimenting with the volume level and preparing the MP3 of the GPO version of this piece. Indeed, that got a rid of a lot of the distortion, but there is still a lot in the last third of the piece.

Decreasing the volume level in Composer (Pro) had some unwanted effects, that I'll need to think about when further designing Composer Pro to work well with GPO. The volume slider in all versions of MidiNotate does something a little curious: it changes both the MIDI note velocities and the MIDI track channel volume level. I did this so that there would be a blend of increasing/decreasing loudness at the same time that there might be also a change in the texture of the sound if the sound driver does more with MIDI velocity than just change the amplitude of the sound waves. This has generally worked quite well for many years in MidiNotate.

As I pointed out about your touch sensitivity explorations, GPO is more sensitive about MIDI velocities. When you move Composer's slider to the left, you can particularly hear a muffling of the brass. A loud brass note comes out with a big punch. A software brass note eases out with much less punch (although still much more than some other instruments). Thus, the 1/3rd rather than 1/2 volume level you used when recording the GPO version of this piece, tended to drain the life out of the brass. The articulations have mostly disappeared.

For use with GPO, I think Composer Pro may need to blend MIDI velocities a little bit different with volume levels. And the volume slider will need to be connected to GPO's volume controller instead of (or in addition to?) the MIDI track channel volume level.

This problem might be able to be solved by going back to the original 1/2 volume level in Composer, and then using GPO's special controller (I forget which one right now) to reduce the volume level. I'll try that, unless you want to take a shot at it.

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-07-2005, 11:33 PM
Howdy Mark,

Thanks for explaining about the volume/loudness controls - that explains a number of phenomenon I've heard in the past, but generally have found workarounds for my needs. I did notice the lack of punch to the brass, but had off-handedly attributed that to a simple volume reduction. After your explanation, it makes better sense http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

The volume controller for GPO is number 7, and it is turned off by default (I'm reading out of the "update" file from Garritan, 10/20/04). Modulation is controller 1. And there are a zillion other controllers for individual instruments. You can play with it for a bit - I have to go make supper http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I'll be back....
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-08-2005, 12:17 AM
Hi Sherry,

I sent an email to Gary Garritan to get some advice about fixing the distortion. He phoned me and suggested that I might try using GPO Studio's ambience panel to use more dryness (which I had already done some). He also reminded me that it is MIDI controller #1 (Mod Wheel) that controls volume level. With this advice, I might be able to clean up the distortion. If not, Gary offered to take a look at this for me.

Gary's Group Buy promotion has been so successful that the group price reached the best bottom price of $139. That is a super deal! The promotion is about to end, but he offered to extend it for MidiNotate customers. See Gary's post in the GPO section of this forum (http://www.notation.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=26888&amp;post=10221#POST10221).

Yes, Gary has visited our forum! That's cool.

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-08-2005, 01:53 AM
Howdy Mark,

That is very cool about Gary visiting, and extending the offer for GPO! If you're reading this item, and you've ever even just considered getting GPO, this is an excellent time to do it!

This is a tremendous library, with lots of available dynamics and articulations for all the instruments. And Composer or Pro are a fantastic match for using GPO. Composer and Pro have so many easily accessible ways to graph out controllers, volume, etc. that just naturally mesh with the fine instrumental control that is available in GPO that even a duffer like me can generate something that sounds decent.

I'm no pro musician by any stretch of the imagination, but I've still been able to put together some pretty decent sounding pieces using Composer and GPO (you can visit my site at www.soundclick.com/beanfieldcastle (http://www.soundclick.com/beanfieldcastle) to hear some). It makes anything you come up with sound really nice http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Jiminy - reading this, you'd think it was a paid commercial, but it isn't. It's just the effusiveness of a very happy user!

Anyway, getting back to the song at hand, I was looking at the mod wheel settings earlier, Mark (using the super-cool event list http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif ), and you do have some of them set quite high, but not maxed out or anything. Perhaps they need to be "tweaked" a bit or something, or use the controller 7 for overall volume, while maintaining the "punch" of the mod wheel (controller 1)? Something else to play with http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-08-2005, 09:19 PM
With tips from Gary and Sherry, I've improved the GPO version of this Stars piece so that a lot of the distortion is now gone except in the last third of the song, Now the brass has a little bit more punch to it. Also, I bumped up the volume level of the trombones so that there is more bass, which Sherry found missing.

Here is the updated version of the .not file and companion .gpo file:

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStars19GPO.not
Stars19GPO.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars19GPO-26988.not) (85.8 k)</td></tr></table></center>
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/mime_txt.gifStars19.gpo
Stars19.gpo (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars19-26989.txt) (82.3 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Please note that the .not file will currently open only with MidiNotate Player and the current beta release of MidiNotate Composer Pro, which you can get in the Composer Pro section of this forum. When MidiNotate Musician and Composer version 1.1 are release, you will also be able to open the above .not file with those versions of MidiNotate.

Gary asked me to send him an MP3 of the piece, so that he can analyze what's wrong with it. I'm still having problems, because I'm a beginner when it comes to audio rather than MIDI. He'll probably be able to give me lots of tips on improving the sound.

Cheers
-- Mark

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-08-2005, 09:27 PM
Here's the MP3 for the above Stars19. I'm surprised the forum let me upload it, since the size exceeds the forum limit. I suppose I was allowed because I'm the administrator. Oh well, I guess the web site owner deserves a little bit of special treatment.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStars19.mp3
Stars19.mp3 (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars19-26992.unk) (1220.4 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Cheers
-- Mark

Clyde (clyde)
06-09-2005, 02:12 AM
Hi,
I've been listening to the sample submitted (and suggested websites), and have been amazed at the quantum quality different between the 'sound card' version and the Garritan sound system.

So good is it, I've actually parted with the money to purchase. Got in time with the bulk buy (which ends today - I think).

Have no idea how it all works, how it interfaces to Composer etc, or even if it will run on my XP system with 256kb RAM - but that is all part of what promises to be an enjoyable learning curve.

I have enjoyed listening to the samples submitted, and am constantly fascinated by what people do - the imagination, variety, and also the technical performance skills . Not all the music is my preference (Prokofieff style chords aren't 'my cup of tea'), but I can apprecaite it none the less.

Cheers ... Clyde

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-09-2005, 04:11 AM
Hello Clyde,

That's great that you purchased GPO. You'll need a 1Gb of RAM at a minimum, but you were looking for an excuse to get more memory, right? I have 1.5Gb of RAM on the machine I use with GPO and Composer, and it does pretty well. When you buy RAM, be sure to leave options open for getting even more RAM later without losing too much of your previous investment in RAM.

By the way, I don't blame you for not preferring Prokofieff sounds. Some of Prokofieff sounds somewhat random to me, even though the right notes are being playing. I most enjoy Prokofieff when it goes back and forth between "comfortable" chord sounds and dissonant sounds-- a very exaggerated version of going in the key of C from a C chord to a G7 chord, where the G7 has just a twinge of dissonance compared to the home base of C, such that the G7 wants to take you back to the calmer C.

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-09-2005, 02:25 PM
Howdy Mark,

Ok, so I got brave and started messing around with your file (but I did save the original for reference). I added some timpani (and used Gary's left and right hand hits http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif ) in "real time" and this is the file, along with the GPO file that goes with it.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifstars with timpani
Stars19GPO-26988 with timpani.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars19GPO-26988_with_timpani-26998.not) (103.4 k)</td></tr></table></center><center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifGPO file for stars with timpani
Stars19-26989 with timpani and bass.gpo (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars19-26989_with_timpani_and_bass-26999.unk) (95.3 k)</td></tr></table></center>

What I did: I added a new track for the timpani, recorded it in, and then converted that track (which had different pseudo pitches for the two hands) to a "single line, multi pseudo pitch" notation. It was nice, because having the GPO "right" and "left" hand hits makes it easier to use both hands to get rhythms better, and using the Composer feature of having multiple pseudo pitches on a single line makes the notation look like a real drum line, that could be scored for a real musician.

I haven't cleaned it up any at all - there are a couple of places where the rhythms could be a bit cleaner, and where the pitch could be changed for better effect. To change the pitches easily, I would probably re-convert the line to a five-line staff just for ease of manipulation. You can feel free to do any changes sooner rather than my getting to it later, if you want http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I've also just started for a few measures adding in some bass ensemble, but since that's not anywhere close to even being completely entered, much less "adjusted", I have hidden and muted that track, though you will see that the bass ensemble is loaded in the GPO Studio file.

Since I don't have the privilege of posting MP3s here, I'll let Mark do that if he wants http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I briefly tried copying over the timpani track into the MIDI version of the file (the stars 12 one), but I ran into a couple glitches, in that not the entire track was copied over. I'll try to get back to that and give a report and filehttp://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks for letting us noodle with your piece - it gives me a fresh perspective, and it makes me listen to the piece in a different way to try and incorporate an element into someone else's composition.

ttfn,
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-09-2005, 03:59 PM
Hi Sherry,

This is fun to hear the timpani line you added to the Stars piece.

I'll exercise my posting priviledge to show your work to others in MP3 format:
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStars19SherryGPO.mp3
Stars19SherryGPO.mp3 (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars19SherryGPO-27001.unk) (1263.5 k)</td></tr></table></center>

The timpani line achieves what you were wanting to hear, some grounding of the piece in the low pitch range. This much I find satisfying.

It doesn't quite work for me, though, and I haven't come up with an analysis that totally convinces me why it doesn't work for me. But here are some thoughts:

The other percussion parts were intended as sparkles of glitter in the piece, unpredictably positioned, mostly out of sync with what else is going on (thus, with voice independence). The new timpani part tends to dominate over that glitter. I suspect that what would work better is if the glitter percussion and the timpani took turns. The timpani could itself be glitter, but at its low pitch range.

Said another way, I think the timpani line might work better for me if it were used more sparingly.

Also, the timpani tends to add a darker, almost ominous mood, as though this space adventure is soon to run into hostile aliens, which I guess usually does happen in space adventures, but I wasn't planning on that happening until much later.

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-09-2005, 05:45 PM
Howdy Mark,

I'm glad that at least part of the timpani inclusion is headed in the right direction.

At this point it's definitely in the "throwing out an idea to bat around" stage, and I myself will quite often add an idea like this into a piece, and then clip all of it out except for the one (to me) perfect moment - the "less is more" approach. I usually find that (contrary to Fred's approach) if I put it in, then leave the piece and come back later, that my ears are better suited to find balance. In that way, I'm like Clyde http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Since this is your piece, and you certainly know better than I what "mood" you want to evoke, and what direction you want to go with it, please do fiddle around with the timpani part if you so desire - snip snip, adjust, whatever. Sometimes the aliens only need to peek around the Death Star just once .... http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I'll try to get to the rest of the bass ensemble later. That may add more of the bottom end grounding, but be more subtle than the timpani.

ttfn,
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-09-2005, 05:58 PM
Hi Sherry,

Would you like to take a shot at trimming some of the timpani?

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-09-2005, 06:06 PM
Howdy Mark,

You first http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif I'm sort of up to my eyeballs at the moment, and am going back outside for some yardwork, then practice and whistle lessons (giving them), and I'm flying solo right now (Bill's out of town on business), so it wouldn't be til tomorrow some time (or tonight) before I get to sit down with it again.

ttfn,
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-09-2005, 06:24 PM
Hi Sherry,

If you might work with it tomorrow, that will be sooner than I'll be able to.

Cheers
-- Mark

Garritan
06-10-2005, 03:28 AM
Hi Sherry,

Excellent composition. I enjoyed it very much! You are most of the way there because you are starting out with a good piece compositionally.

The clipping can be the result of a few things and there are some suggestions.

First, make sure you use only dry instruments which don't take up as much CPU. Next, the ambience reverb in GPO Studio there is a CPU/Quality knob that you could turn down. This will free up resources. Next, check your soundcard settings and raise the buffers as high as thet can go. Make sure you adjust the wet/dry sliders in the ambience reverb - if they are too high this can produce distortion.

Hope this helps and keep up the good work!

Gary Garritan

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-10-2005, 02:31 PM
Howdy Gary (and all),

I only wish I could compose like that! Mark has graciously offered us the opportunity to play around with his composition, and I've been bold enough to venture to add some timpani and am in the process of adding some bass strings, just to see how it goes. So I can't take any credit at all - this is Mark's baby ;)

And thanks for the suggestions about clipping - I've used some of those in the past for remedying some of those very same problems. The "clip" reference in my post above, however, dealt with the fact that my compositional style is that I tend to put in a lot more in a track initially, then I tend to "clip" or delete it out later, as my ear tends to come back to equilibrium between the parts.

And thanks Gary for the helpful hint about the reverb. I didn't realize that if it was too high it could produce distortion. I've had one occasion in the past where I was using GPO, and we wanted a very "echo chamber" like effect, and we ended up with some distortion. Your point explains why http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-11-2005, 09:03 PM
FYI, I believe I found one of the reasons for the distortion I was having with Composer playing GPO. In GPO Studio's Settings / Preferences, I had Buffer Size set to 256, but I had the Settings / Preferences / ASIO Control Panel inconsistently set to a 512 buffer size. This was probably asking for trouble.

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-18-2005, 05:38 AM
Howdy Mark,

Oooh, this is fun http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif I went back and totally re-did the timpani line - I think I was too much in "groove" mode when I did the first one http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif See (and hear) what you think of it. It may need some toning down - it's a bit difficult for me to gauge what others will hear, because I have a sub-woofer on my system (for working on all that bass stuff http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif ) The same goes for the Bass Ensemble that I added. Turn them to your taste (or turn them off if you don't like them ;) ). For the bass, I tried to keep it very subdued, but with the hint of that foundation, steady driving at some points, floating low at others.

Here are the files:

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStars with timpani and bass ensemble
Stars 20 GPO timpani and bass.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars_20_GPO_timpani_and_bass-27027.not) (107.7 k)</td></tr></table></center>

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStars with timpani and bass ensemble
Stars 20 GPO timpani and bass.gpo (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars_20_GPO_timpani_and_bass-27028.unk) (95.3 k)</td></tr></table></center>

If Mark wishes to upload an MP3 of the result, he can do that http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Now, I can go hack on Fred's sax piece ;)

ttfn,
Sherry

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-19-2005, 12:10 AM
Howdy Mark,

I meant to mention above that if you'd rather not take up space on your server with mp3 files, I'd be glad to post an mp3 on my SoundClick site, complete with description and credit to you, of course. Just let me which method you'd prefer, especially since you're using the piece (sans my "extra stuff") for the new GPO Tutorial.

ttfn,
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-20-2005, 04:27 PM
Hello Sherry,

The timpani and bass you've added indeed fill out the lower range of notes that this piece seems to want.

The timpani works well for me, as it is used sparingly, and adds extra sparkle in the low register as opposed to a steady beat keeper.

The bass doesn't work for me. I tried changing the instrument from bass section to tuba solo, and that seem more in character with balance of brass and strings.

Some of notes in the bass worked for me when they grounded the harmony at some crucial moments. At other times, the notes in the bass got in the way of the piece, I felt, for various reasons:
* The rhythm was too regular, like the bass was trying to tell the rest of the players where the barlines and half beats were so that they would all get their rhythms right.
* Shifts in the octaves played by the bass happened to much on barlines. Interest can be added by doing things off the beat.
* Too many of the notes were the roots of chords. The bass should be given the opportunity to play the 3rd, 5th, and 7th of chords.
* Passing notes between members of chords can work great in the bass. An attempt or two at this, however, was not convincing because the passing notes were not passing between convincing harmony notes.

Here's a post of your latest version of Stars, with comments that I've added to the bass track.

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStars_20_GPO_timpani_and_bass-With-Comments-by-Mark.not
Stars_20_GPO_timpani_and_bass-With-Comments-by-Mark.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars_20_GPO_timpani_and_bass-With-Comments-by-Mark-27047.not) (108.5 k)</td></tr></table></center>

These are all just my opinions. I wouldn't normally offer this much critique, but I feel more entitled to do this, since we're collaborating on a piece that I originally drafted.

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-20-2005, 05:58 PM
Howdy Mark,

Very cool! I like being able to have the notes (your written annotations, that is) right in the score - kind of like having hand-written notes and thoughts right where they are needed!

I'll get to those in a minute http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

You said above:
* The rhythm was too regular, like the bass was trying to tell the rest of the players where the barlines and half beats were so that they would all get their rhythms right.

Yep, you're right. I should have done with the "bass ensemble" part what I did with the timpani - do it, leave it, and go back later. What you state above, though, is actually what a bass player in a rock band (or other pop music) is *supposed* to do - they're kind of the bridge between the more melodic sections and the rhythm section http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif I guess I was just falling into my normal mode with my band at church http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

* Shifts in the octaves played by the bass happened to much on barlines. Interest can be added by doing things off the beat.

Agreed.

* Too many of the notes were the roots of chords. The bass should be given the opportunity to play the 3rd, 5th, and 7th of chords.

Agreed, again. These are the types of notes that I would have changed
had I done the smart thing and left it alone a few days and come back.

* Passing notes between members of chords can work great in the bass.
An attempt or two at this, however, was not convincing because the passing notes were not passing between convincing harmony notes.

This is definitely one of my weaknesses when entering notes from a keyboard. When I'm playing my bass in-hand, I can do that without thinking. I probably should get my bass in my hands, and then enter the notes that I play when I'm working through the piece. This is part of my frustration with my keyboard (dis)abilities. However, getting the bass in my hands to play through something is probably a good idea that I should follow through on. It's one of those "kinesthetic" things http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I'll have to go through your annotations in the piece and see what I can do to address those. And which tuba did you use? I want to hear what you're hearing (although I'm sure I don't hear in my head what you hear in yours ;) ) Perhaps you could enter an alternate "Mark's tuba interpretation" staff above the one I entered to demonstrate how you might make the tuba line more in step (pun intended) with what you're thinking. That could be instructive for those of us following this little saga.

This is really neat - thanks for letting me mess around with it, and for the pointers on how you view composition. Those are helpful items to learn http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif I generally know just enough to be dangerous ;)

You also said:
These are all just my opinions. I wouldn't normally offer this much critique, but I feel more entitled to do this, since we're collaborating on a piece that I originally drafted.

To which I reply:
You bet! I find it all a wonderful learning experience - thanks!

ttfn,
Sherry

Mark Walsen (markwa)
06-20-2005, 06:36 PM
Hi Sherry,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Very cool! I like being able to have the notes (your written annotations, that is) right in the score - kind of like having hand-written notes and thoughts right where they are needed!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I started to enter the comments as lyrics, but found that it was easier to use free text. That should have been obvious to me from the start.

I forgot to save the .gpo file. I used solo tuba 1; set the Kontakt volume level about abou 80%; and in Composer as the Mod Wheel for the whole track at 10,000 if I remember correctly.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Perhaps you could enter an alternate "Mark's tuba interpretation" staff above the one I entered to demonstrate how you might make the tuba line more in step (pun intended) with what you're thinking. That could be instructive for those of us following this little saga.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I could do that, and perhaps will later. But I'm interested in hearing what you might do. It would be sort of like how my piano teacher, Althea, taught me. She was my first and only piano teacher from age 8 to 18. She never showed me how to interpret music by playing it herself. She just gave me suggestions, and left it to me to put my own personal touch on the music. It became my music instead of hers. Althea wasn't very strong on teaching piano technique; but she taught her students to love music. So, I'm thinking here the way Althea would by offering some suggestions but leaving it to you to put your own personal touch on the piece. If I've left you enough room ... :-)

Cheers
-- Mark

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-20-2005, 07:19 PM
Howdy Mark,

You wrote:

I could do that, and perhaps will later. But I'm interested in hearing what you might do. It would be sort of like how my piano teacher, Althea, taught me. She was my first and only piano teacher from age 8 to 18. She never showed me how to interpret music by playing it herself. She just gave me suggestions, and left it to me to put my own personal touch on the music. It became my music instead of hers. Althea wasn't very strong on teaching piano technique; but she taught her students to love music. So, I'm thinking here the way Althea would by offering some suggestions but leaving it to you to put your own personal touch on the piece. If I've left you enough room ... :-)

Sherry says:

That sounds an awful lot like what I do with my students http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif As mentioned, I know about enough to be dangerous, but I do love music, and I've learned from all different styles. I'm certainly not the best in a technical sense by a long shot, but I do want all my students (and my kids) to love what they do, and I think there I am successful (so far).

As for the tuba part, I'm going to go out in the sunshine and rest a bit under a big willow tree and see what sorts of things float out. A willow seems a good inspiration for a big foundational, yet a bit unpredictable part ;) This one has been around about 150+ years! (the tree, not the part)

ttfn,
Sherry

Sherry Crann (sherry)
06-28-2005, 06:27 AM
Howdy Mark,

Ok, so I was fooling around a bit with GPO after Andrew had mentioned he was having problems hearing it, and here's what I came up with for the tuba part, labelled creatively as "new tuba" for that track:

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifSherry answers Mark about the tuba
Stars_20_GPO_Sherry answers Mark.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stars_20_GPO_Sherry_answers_Mark-27092.not) (115.4 k)</td></tr></table></center>

I've left the first tuba part in, but have hidden and muted it (which also makes the comments disappear, unless you unhide that track). Some changes were directly your comments, some sort of took off. But this is a first revision, so I may change my mind http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

And we really have to do something about that Addiction Management thing....

ttfn,
Sherry