using VSampler with MidiNotate Composer

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Has anyone here used VSampler and the Speedsoft virtual Midi cable with MidiNotate Composer.I just purchased the MidiNotate Composer recently and I am totally impressed with how well it can transcribe MIDI files as well as my own real-time playing.I really dont use Sibelius anymore since purchasing Composer

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello Andrew,

I haven't heard of any MidiNotate folk using VSampler or Speedsoft. MidiOx seems to be the favorite. There is another virtual MIDI cable some folk use, but I forget what it is. You can bet pretty safely on MidiOx if you're going to use it with Composer, because that's what I use during testing of MidiNotate.

Here's a really important tip, though, about MidiOx. Avoid MIDI feedback loops! The best way to do this is to use the MIDI Device Configuration command in MidiNotate's Setup menu. In the MIDI Device Config window, use the Select Ports command in the Port menu. Then make sure that each MidiYoke port (1 through 16) is turned off for either MIDI In or MIDI Out.

The MIDI Device Configuration portion of MidiNotate lets you keep multiple alternative configurations. I keep one configuration that includes the MIDI Yoke (Ox) ports, and another that doesn't. If you don't use the MIDI Yoke ports, then you'll likely prefer not to wait the extra couple of seconds it takes /Windows to open and close the 16 ports.

If you get started on virtual MIDI cables in this forum, there are some folk here who will talk your ear off, if I haven't already.

MidiNotate Composer is flattered by your complimentary comparison to Sibelius, which has many merits.

Cheers
-- Mark

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Thanks for the info. I did end up trying VSampler with the Speedsoft Virtual midi cable with Composer using a Sonic Implants GM bank and my next step is to get some better sounds for the GM set.Sibelius is cool don't get me wrong but Composer definitely transcribes Standard Midi Files much better than Sibelius and I've used the same files with both of them with the same result.

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi Andrew,

If you're interested in orchestral sounds, and your system has 1Gb or more of memory, then check out the excellent and very reasonably priced Garritan Orchestral Library (GPO).

Cheers
-- Mark

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

I definitely will get that library as it does sound impressive and my computer has 1Gb of RAM so it will be able to handle it.I do have sounds from my Kurzweil libraries that I can translate with Chicken Systems translator to V-Sampler format so that I can use them with the Sonic Implants GM bank it's just going to take some time chosing and replacing sounds in the GM bank. Thanks, Andrew

[David Jacklin (dj)]

Mark said:

"MidiOx seems to be the favorite. There is another virtual MIDI cable some folk use, but I forget what it is."

Just to be pedantic, Mark, it's Midi-Yoke that provides the virtual ports that, I'm willing to bet, your Midi-Ox is connected to. Midi-Yoke is available at the Midi-Ox site, but it is a separate program. Ox -- yoke -- I get it now!

I use Midi-Ox with the Maple Midi virtual ports, which seem to fit my system a little better. I think the difference mostly that Midi-Yoke's XP support is hardwired to 8 ports, for some reason, while Midi Maple lets you select the number you want, up to 8.

No other major difference, I think.

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi David,

Thanks for the correction in referring to MidiOx versus MidiYoke.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I use Midi-Ox with the Maple Midi virtual ports, which seem to fit my system a little better. I think the difference mostly that Midi-Yoke's XP support is hardwired to 8 ports, for some reason, while Midi Maple lets you select the number you want, up to 8.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>At first, I did find it annoying that there were 16 Midi Yoke drivers listed every time I was selecting MIDI ports. But in MidiNotate that's not an issue if you turn off the checkmarks for the MIDI ports you don't need using the MIDI Device Configuration window's Port / Select Port command.

Cheers
-- Mark

[David Jacklin (dj)]

Doesn't each of the extra ports take up some system resources, though?

Maybe that's not as big an issue in WinXP as in Win98.

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi David,

The extra MIDI ports don't use resources unless the MIDI ports are "opened" by the MIDI application. In MidiNotate, if you turn off the checkmarks for the ports in Setup / MIDI Device Configuration / Ports / Select Ports, then the MIDI ports won't be opened, and no resources will be used. This is true regardless of the version of Windows.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Erwin O (erdax)]

Hi ev'ryone,

I have a question about GPO. Do you still need the virtual midicable to use the GPO-player or does Composer recognize it like that. If so than the Kontakt 2 sampler will work also or am I only dreaming.
I hope so, I hate virtual cables.

Erwin

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Erwin,

I have GPO, and Composer recognizes it as its own device, no strings (or cables) attached http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Composer will actually recognize GPO as 8 different devices, because the "GPO Studio" that comes up for such applications has 8 players, with 8 "slots" (for instruments) each. So you have up to 64 spaces for instruments - woohoo! The only thing you have to be careful of is that you have sufficient memory. Garritan recommends a minimum of 1 Gb. I used to have only 512 Mb in my machine, and I could run up to about 4 or 5 instruments, but after that it got "hiccups" really bad. I now have 1.5 Gb of memory, and haven't had any problems even with a whole orchestra loaded. Ahhhh, yes http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

If you have any other questions about GPO, I'd be glad to help if I can - it's a terrific sound library, and with the recent updates, it's been made even more flexible. It's a very good fit with Composer and especially with the "Pro" version that Mark is going to be releasing.

ttfn,
Sherry

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy again,

I just reviewed the last part of your message, Erwin, and my understanding is that the Kontakt sampler should work in the same way as the GPO Studio player. So yes, if you've got the Kontakt Sampler (or are planning to acquire it), then you should be in business with no cable needs for Composer http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Erwin O (erdax)]

Hi Sherry

That's just the thing I like about Kontakt, no cables, no problems.
Next week I'm going to order GPO and get me some more memory too.

Later on I will, if my wallet let's me do it, upgrade to Kontakt 2.

Be sure, Sherry, there are a lot of question coming on........soon!

Greetings......Erwin

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Erwin,

I probably should read the Kontakt advertisements myself, but... What extra do you get with Kontakt2 that isn't in the Kontakt player bundled with GPO?

Cheers
-- Mark

[Erwin O (erdax)]

Hi Mark

In one word, a lot.

Kontakt Player which comes with GPO is only a player. Kontakt 2 could be compared with Tascam's GigaStudio but I find the ease of working with it outstanding. What you can do with it, layer sounds, HD streaming, surround, effects, modeling.
You can create new sounds from existing samples and all this in an easy and simple way.

In fact it is too much to sum up here so visit Native Instruments (http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?id=home_us&amp;lcd=1#get_URL_ID_TOK#)

If you are serious about sampling than Kontakt is a must.
With GPO Studio you can only play the GPO-samples and that's it.

Kontakt 2 full version cost $499, but if you are a registered owner of Kontakt player than an upgrade to the full version is $350.
With it comes a huge 15 Gb samplebank. (even VSL is included, at least a small version).

It isn't cheap but worth every penny.

Cheers........Erwin

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Hi, I just ordered Kontakt 2 today. Is it true that you can use Kontakt 2 with MidiNotate Composer without any virtual Midi-cable? Does anybody on this forum have Kontakt2 and presently using it with MidiNotate Composer? Thanks,Andrew

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Andrew,

I don't have Kontakt 2, but I do have GPO, which uses a Kontakt player, and it works just fine with Composer. The Kontakt player is recognized as another midi device (in the Midi Configuration dialog), and so you don't need any sort of virtual go-between.

ttfn,
Sherry

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Hi Sherry, Thanks for the info. I originally was going to get GPO but decided to get Kontakt 2 instead.I'm very fortunate that I was able to get Kontakt 2 at an educational discount [ about 1/2 the normal price] due to the fact that I am currently employed part-time with a charter-school out here in California as an accompanist as well as being a full-time piano instructor.The discount made it easier to go for kontakt 2.

[Erwin O (erdax)]

Hi Andrew

If you did buy Kontakt 2 for 1/2 the normal price, than you must be able to buy GPO for 1/2 the price ($139 ) of the second 1/2 you won with Kontakt 2.

I bought GPO for an exceptional price ( 121€, all in, the cheapest in whole Europe) and now I'm going for an upgrade to Kontakt 2, which is still one of the best samplers on the market.

Let us know how Kontakt 2 works with Composer.

Cheers..........Erwin

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

thanks for the feedback about Kontakt2.I also will want to upgrade my computer RAM from 1 GB to 2 GB which will help a Kontakt2 is CPU hungry so the more RAM the better. Thanks, Andrew

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Hi, I got Kontakt2 this week and it's truly wonderful. However I can't get Midinotate Composer to recgonise Kontakt 2 as a midi device.My trial run for Composer pro expired so I was unable to try it out with kontakt 2. Any suggestions and or tips would be greatly appreciated. Andrew

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Andrew,

Congratulations on your acquisition, Andrew! I'm really surprised that Composer doesn't seem to recognize it as a midi device. The only thing I can offer from the perspective of having GPO and using it with Composer is that I had to have GPO Studio (ie, the Kontakt player) running first before I fired up Composer, so that it would initially recognize the devices (GPO has 8 players available). After that, it gets saved in the cfg file, and is always available.

Other than that, I'm sure Mark (or others) will have some suggestions.

Good luck! That should be a fun tool when you get going with it!
ttfn,
Sherry

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi Andrew,

Sherry's advice is quite correct, that you should start Kontakt2 before running Composer.

You should be able to use Kontatk2 not only with Composer Pro but also MidiNotate Composer and Musician.

If after trying Sherry's advice this still doesn't work, please let us know.

Cheers
-- Mark

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Hi Mark, I did try starting Kontakt 2 before starting Midinotate Composer without any luck. I knew I had to do that because I was previously using VSampler with Composer.If this helps, when I open the midi device setup these are the four devices that are displayed,SpeedShift MidiCable 1 and 2,E-DSP Midi Port{ EMU 0404 Soundcard and MicrosoftGS Wavetable SW Synth. These devices were in the MIDI device setup in Composer before I had installed Kontakt2.Composer is able to recieve MIDI information but I am still unable to get Composer to communicate with Kontakt2. Thank you Sherry and Mark , Andrew

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Andrew,

Please try this: In the Setup / MIDI Device Configuration window, use the Config / New command. Then choose Port / Select Ports. Make sure that there are checkmarks by the Kontakt devices.

Cheers
-- Mark

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Hi Mark, I tried what you told me but Composer does not recognize Kontakt 2 there is Midi Information being transmitted but no audio and before opening Composer I have kontakt 2 set up and producing sound and really very nice sounds indeed!!!But Composer does not seem to want to work with kontakt 2 yet!.Can I re-download Composer Pro trial version and try it out with kontakt 2 and see if it is any difference. Thanks, andrew

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello Andrew,

The www.native-instruments.de (http://www.native-instruments.de) web site seems to be down right now, so I'm not able to do any further research there at the moment.

I don't own a copy of Kontakt2, so this is somewhat difficult for me to investigate here on my own.

Are the MIDI output ports for Kontakt2 listed in the Windows Control Panel / Multimedia / MIDI panel? These MIDI ports need to be there in order for Composer to be able to play to Kontakt2, and also for any other MIDI application to do so. Make note of the name(s) of the Kontakt2 MIDI port(s).

These MIDI ports should show up in Composer's Setup / MIDI Device Configuration window. Do you see the ports listed there?

If you don't see the Kontakt2 port listed in the MIDI Device Configuration window, then Use the Port / Select Ports command in the MIDI Device Configuration window. Do you see the Kontakt2 port(s) listed there? You should. Let me know if you know. If you do see the port listed, do you see a checkmark by it? I suspect not. Let me know which way you see it. Then add a checkmark by the Kontakt port. You should then see the Kontakt port listed in the MIDI Device Configuration window.

If you have arrived at this point and _do_ see the Kontakt port listed in the MIDI Device Configuration window, try assigning that port/device to some song and play it. Do you now hear Kontakt playing?

If you don't hear Kontakt playing, go back to the MIDI Device Configuration window. Is the Kontakt port listed as "Out(put)"? If not, please let me know, and then select it, and use the Port / Properties command, and set a checkmark for "Open for MIDI Output (playback)". Then trying playing to the Kontakt Player again.

If you have arrived at this point and still do not hear playback on the Kontakt Player, then I'll explore with Native Instruments whether they'll lend me a copy of Kontakt2 to use to debug this problem.

Cheers
-- Mark

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Hi Mark, Kontakt 2 port is not listed in the MIDI device configuration window nor does it appear after using the Port/select ports command. I am able to record with Kontakt 2 and hear it while I'm recording into Composer and it records my note data just fine but I still do not hear playback from Kontakt 2. Kontakt 2 works just fine as a stand-alone player and as a VST plugin in Steinberg Cubasis.I know that it would be hard for you to trouble-shoot this problem without having Kontakt 2 on hand. Thanks, Andrew

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello Andrew,

Composer does not directly support VST plug-ins. I don't know whether this means that there isn't a way that Kontakt2 can appear to be a MIDI device to Composer. GPO Studio makes the Kontakt player appear to be a MIDI device to Composer, but that is because GPO Studio is itself a VST host for the Kontakt Player, which is a VST plug-in.

I suspect that either Native Instruments offers a VST host that makes the Kontakt2 player accessible as a MIDI device, or some third party offers such a tool.

To you feel up to researching this? If not, I can Google around or ask Native Instruments.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy,

Another "quick and dirty" experiment is to just download the GPO Studio (available at http://www.garritan.com/downloads.html ) and see if it will allow you to use it for Kontakt 2. It may not work, but it might be something to try in the interim while waiting for a response from NI.

Or, you can try the NI downloads page. It seems to change every time I've gone looking for it, so I don't have a url for that one.

ttfn,
Sherry

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Thank you for the suggestions. I may try the virtual MIDI cable with Kontakt 2 and see if that could possibly work like it does with VSampler. The Native Instruments web-site must be down as I am unable to go to their site at present. I will E-mail them and ask if Kontakt 2 will work with a virtual MIDI cable. Thanks,Andrew

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy,

Lest anyone think I'm being subversive, I should clarify that I was reverting to my old days in research when I mentioned the "quick and dirty experiment." I simply meant one that didn't involve a lot of variables nor controls - something you can easily try without a lot of effort, and that may give you some idea of what direction to go.

Kontakt/Garritan puts the GPO Studio up for "free" distribution, safe in the knowledge that it will only work for the intended product. I just thought that perhaps since Kontakt2 is also a Kontakt "plugin", that it just might work. But then again, it may not http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello Andrew,

I don't think a virtual MIDI cable will help to convert the VST plug-in Kontakt2 Player into a MIDI device.

You might think of a virtual MIDI cable as an analogy to a physical Y-cable with one MIDI-In and two MIDI-Outs. What we need is something that is similar to a physical cable adapter that has a MIDI connector at one in and a sound card joy-stick port at the other end. Except, what we need is a software cable (actually a VST host) that has a VST plug-in as input and MIDI as output.

Cheers
-- Mark

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Hi Mark, VSampler is a VST plugin as well as a stand-alone device and it does work with Composer via a Speedsoft Virtual Midi-Cable quite well.The speedsoft Midi-Cable came with V-Sampler which explains why it's compatible with VSampler.You mentioned previously that you use MIDI yoke { virtual MIDI cable}. I downloaded it and unzipped the file into my computer but it won't appear in composer. Where should I install MIDI yoke so that Composer will be able to see it? I just want to try connecting it to Kontakt 2 to see if it would possibly work.I still can use VSampler with MidiNotate Composer and save as a midi file and export it to a sequencer so that I could hear the file with the wonderful sounds that come with Kontakt 2 particularlly the orchestra sounds! Thanks,Andrew

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi Andrews,

I'm afraid that this discussion has gone way past my area of knowledge about VST, let alone other software products that I don't have here: Kontakt2 and VSampler.

It may be that the only solution here is that Composer needs to add VST hosting support. This has already been recommended to me by others.

If there is a way (some sort of software adapter) to make Kontakt2's playback accessible via a MIDI application that doesn't act as a VST host, then maybe you can learn about that from other knowledgeable Kontakt2 users in another forum, hopefully Native Instrument's. You might not learn anything more in this forum :-(

It's on my to-do list to explore adding VST host support to Composer. I wish it were there now for you.

Cheers
-- Mark

[andrew hutnick (ahutnick)]

Hi Mark, Yes I would like to see VST hosting in Composer too.However I can always use VSampler with Composer and then open up that file in a sequencer and hear that score with Kontakt 2. Irregardless I really enjoy using MidiNotate Composer and it does a wonderful job opening Standard Midi files and doing live Midi Transcriptions of my playing and is far easier to edit than either Sibelius or Finale. Thanks, Andrew