Fill 'er Up

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

C'mon guys! There is plenty of room here to upload your creations. There is no better way to learn than through the sharing of ideas and information from each other. I am in the very early stages of learning how to put things together and the process gets easier when I can see how others accomplish the things I am trying to do. I'm sure there is lots of skill and talent out there and this is a great place to show it. I would be willing to bet that Mark would love to see this section of the forum utilized to its full potential. Let's go. Let's fill 'er up!
Fred Winterling

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi Fred,

That's right. I'd love to see a lot more activity in this Share Your Music section of the forum. But it's definitely off to a start.

Another good forum/newsgroup in which one can share compositions with others is the rec.music.compose newsgroup, which you can access using Google Groups. There are other music gendre-specific newsgroups also, which I'm not so familiar with. These newsgroups are worth exploring. You might want to submit your compositions there for discussion with other composers, as well as in our forum here.

An advantage of our forum now is that it is intimate. We sort of know each other, and we welcome newcomers. The rec.music.compose newsgroup has some regular participants who know each other well. New folk jumping into the rec.music.compose are probably less likely to continue participating there than in our forum because they are less likely to get any responses the first time they join in, or if they do, it's more likely they'll get only negative feedback than they would in our forum.

I think the strength of this Share Your Music section of the forum will be that it is supportive of the musical creative efforts of the participants. A major goal here is to encourage each other to create music and to find fulfillment in doing that. We can encourage each other by offering positive feedback where we can honestly offer it. And, when the composer indicates that he or she is looking for constructive critical feedback, we can provide him or her another perspective that might be useful.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Clyde (clyde)]

Hi,

I would like to echo the call to 'share our music'. We all benefit from this, eg:

(a) Each of uses Composer in a different way or for a different style of music. Some record directly into Composer, others generate orchestral parts, others (like myself) use it as a scoring programing to publish our music on the web. From comments in the forum, other also use it to prepare parts for their Church Bands etc.

(b) Most of us are self-conscious about our creations, and tend to be bashful and shy. I know I am - but it has been greatly encouraging to me to have the encouragement of peer comment, and also to see what others are doing that we all struggle with aspects of our musical creations. None of us are in a position to be critical of what others do, but we can certainly encourage each other.

(c) The facility that Mark has provided to 'share our music' will get your music known to others. For example, in the first 4 days of June so far, 16 people have followed the 'share your music' link and looked at my music. Even in the last few hours, people have downloaded/played 12 of my '.NOT' files from my web page.

(d) Mark has produced such a versatile package, and not only do we each use it for a different style of music, but we use it with emphasis on a different feature of the package. I think its great that we can be part of that promotion where we can all be winners.

Cheers ... Clyde

[David Jacklin (dj)]

Okay, go to the "classical" section.

Mark: may I request a "Show Music" section, as most of my music has no real home here?

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi David,

I have now added the Show Music section. I also tried to move your Overture from the Classical to the Show Music section, but didn't do it quite right. Please start a new thread in the SHow Music section, and make a copy of your Overture post. The new thread will enable others to respond to your post.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy,

This is sort of a different angle on the "Fill 'er up" motif, but since we've gotten into the "how folks compose" bit here lately, what with Clyde explaining how he uses BIAB to begin his process, and Tim and Fred and Mark noodle (quite well and intelligently) at the keyboard, and David takes off on lots of stuff, I thought I'd point you to my SoundClick site, where I've posted a lot of "rough sketches" of some songs I've written.

My process usually (though not always) involves sort of a swirl of music noodling on my guitar coming together with something that's been on my mind of late. Sometimes it has something to do with my kids or husband, sometimes it has to do with life situations, and sometimes it has to do with scripture that I've been reading. It may be that I start with the words, and noodle something on the guitar to fit the beginnings of a melody that I've got in my head. Other times it's that whatever noodling I'm doing, I try to start fitting words to that. So I don't have a set protocol for my compositions - quite often they just kind of happen.

Anyway, I'm hoping to get some more work done on these in the not too distant future. In the meantime, you can hear me "in the rough" as it were, and then I'll post the final "polished" versions, too, just for comparison. The polished versions will definitely be done with Composer Pro, so I'll post those files in the appropriate genre categories as I get them done.

ttfn,
Sherry
www.soundclick.com/beanfieldcastle (http://www.soundclick.com/beanfieldcastle)

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

p.s. http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

When you get to the page above, click on the "music" link to get to the page with the songs.

Sherry

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi Sherry,

Your list of pieces at Soundclick is already pretty long! You've been busy.

I suspect that many forum users will wonder, "How did Sherry make those sounds?" (I was just listening to Aaron's Meditation.) It might be valuable to many of us if you gave us a tutorial on using SynthFont and sound fonts with Composer. You'll described the techniques here and there in the forum, but it would be great to have that in one place, in new section of the forum Using MidiNotate with Third Party Products / Sound Libraries and Software Synthesizers.

If you described that in one place, then wherever you describe what's inside one of your compositions, you could refer readers to your general write-up about SynthFont and sound fonts (and whatever tools you use with Composer). What do you think?

It's a delight to see you making so much music.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Mark,

Well, the list at SoundClick is actually songs that I've written over the past 6 or 7 years, it's just that I've never had the ability to put them into any type of notation or recorded format until Composer http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif And it did spark some creative outlet - a little over a third of the songs that I've done have been since beginning to use Composer.

I'd be glad to put together a tutorial of sorts on soundfonts and how I've used them. I can pull together some of the bits and pieces I have scattered around the forum, which I've been meaning to do anyway http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif I will mention that most of the soundfont use that I do, though, is within Composer itself, because my soundcard has the ability to load soundfonts. But using SynthFont makes it possible for folks who don't have that capability to still use soundfonts for performing the music that you create using Composer (SynthFont is only a player, not a creation tool).

It's fun making so much music http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif It's a great release for me, and I humbly thank you for your contribution in helping me along the way http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Guys! I'll second Mark's request. Sherry, you're a pro. Rough sketches? How do you improve on that? I saw a post elsewhere about SynthFont and was going to download it (haven't yet) I was going to look for that post again and ask how to use it with Composer. But I'm still working on how to get everything to start on the same beat and in the same meter. I tried to do something with a little bass and drums and the keyboard. I thought it would come out OK if I made the rhythm tracks first and I couldn't get anything to start at the same time. It sounded like 3 different bands trying to record together without headphones. And they all guessed when to start. I laughed at that attempt for a day and a half. That's what I was doing when I realized I missed a tee time with my son at his country club in Portsmouth,VA this past Saturday. You know I am a sax man, not a keyboardist so you can help me cry on this one... My son missed the tee time too. We were to meet his friend at the club. Anyway, the friend showed up by himself and guess who they paired him up with??...Kenny G. Can you imagine how wonderful I felt missing the opportunity to play 18 holes with Kenny G? We would have had a little to talk about. Anyway, our friend got a bunch of free front row seats for Kenny's concert that night in addition to an invitation to attend an informal personal concert for all the stage people and members of the show afterwards. Then our friend played another 18 holes with him the next day and didn't call us. Anyway, enough crying! Can someone give me any tips on how to get all the tracks to start at the same time? I can't be that bad. I always thought I could at least count to four. Fred W

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

Thanks for the encouragement http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Don't let anyone fool you - flattery will get you a lot of places ;)

As for the rough sketches, if you listen to those pieces so designated, you'll understand. Some of the pieces I have up now on SoundClick have me singing in one of your ears, and my guitar playing in the other http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Along with miscues, and such. I put them up mainly to sort of help some folks (some of my students, and you folks, too) to see how I work through the process of coming up with a song, and then working through fleshing it out.

For me, once a song "hits" me, it's pretty easy to get it to the "me and my guitar" stage, but fleshing it out used to be nigh unto impossible, until Composer came along http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Fred, for the "three bands recording and no headphones" syndrome, it sounds as if you may have latency problems. I know this issue has come up before with other users, and one of the best solutions I know is to try using the ASIO4all driver. This driver can be used with multiple devices, and is available for FREE at www.asio4all.com (http://www.asio4all.com) (sidenote for present users: he put up the new 2.6 version just this past April) I've been using this driver with all my devices, and I have absolutely no latency issues when it comes to recording or playing "live" at all. You might want to give it a try.

The short version of SynthFont - you don't use it directly with Composer. You use Composer to put together your composition, and then you can use SynthFont to utilize soundfonts for the performance of the piece. I'll put a bit more in another entry under "Third party software" stuff.

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Thanks Sherry! That may be the problem. I was confused by the echo earlier when playing along with the keyboard and downloaded asio4all at that time, but I solved the problem by turning down my speakers so it didn't bother me. I never thought about it possibly being a problem with the recording. My asio4all shows that my midi-out is "unavailable" and my midi-in as "beyond logic". With all the problems I had with configuring, I thought it best not to mess with it at the time. When reading the manuals, it is like a foreign language to me because I don't have the technical knowledge to understand what they are talking about. I need to educate myself in that area or find a "Manual For Dummies".
Your method of composing is very similar to mine. Until Composer came along I wasn't very motivated to write any more. I would usually forget a particular theme or motif just about every time I thought I had something. Now if something is going on in my head, usually just a few notes or a few measures, I quickly record it into Composer and try to elaborate on it later. However, I can't work piecemeal. I have to complete the entire song in one setting. Usually, I will just close my eyes and lean back against the wall and let my fingers do the walking. I am completely oblivious to everything around me and I get lost in a fog. It sounds like I am listening to someone else... Weird! My teacher used to play 4 notes within an octave, and I was to compose a song from that as part of my lesson. It works really well. It's a lot like the old TV game "Name That Tune". Try having someone not musically inclined play 4 notes for you and "noodle" from there. It's fun. Thanks for accepting Mark's challenge, by the way. That will be a tremendous help for a lot of people. It's very gracious of you to offer to do that.
tyrg
Fred (I don't know what "tyrg" stands for, I just "composed" it)

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

AHA!! NO LATENCY! I found out I really could count to 4. I just wasn't counting at the same exact speed for each track. Old sax players have a tendency to sometimes "ride" on top of the meter (which is OK as long as the meter is perfect). Now all I have to do is figure out how to synchronize a pre-recorded rhythm pattern to match the recording. Thanks guys! Fred

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

Congrats on reaching the NO LATENCY zone http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

When you say "synchronize a pre-recorded rhythm pattern to match the recording", I'm wondering if you do like I do for some recordings. Do you mean that the first "pre-recorded rhythm pattern" is an audio recording, or a midi recording? I've had both occasions, and I do things quite similarly in both cases. If you don't get it figured out, and you want to give us a few more details (ie, which tracks are audio (if any) and which are midi, etc), then I can tell you what I've done in similar situations. Things may be different, too, if you want to get usable sheet music, or if you just want a performance that you can hear and not worry about the sheet music.

Keep up the good work!
ttfn,
Sherry

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi Fred,

When I first started recording my own MIDI performances some 16 or 17 years ago, I remember having exactly the same problem, that there was latency in my own performance as I was trying to record against pre-recorded accompaniment tracks. Also, when I first started testing Composer's recording, I found that my human latency was horrible. I've improved on that a good bit with practice, but still, I'm a terrible ensemble player when I play with my one-person band (multiple tracks in Composer).

Fortunately, there are easy ways to fix one's recorded human latency. You can shift the real as-performed times of selected notes to the right or left using Composer's piano roll notation. Read about this in the Help / Users Guide in the section Viewing and Editing the Music Performance / Viewing and Editing the Performance of Notes. After you shift the notes, you might want to use the Track / Re-Transcribe command so that the notated rhythms match the re-located notes.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry & Mark,
Basically I do the rhythm thing a couple of different ways. Sometimes I try the "style" and ACMP on the keyboard and other times I may copy a bass or drum track from another midi file that has changes similar to what I want, then edit the chords and the notes in it to match. That's the hard way for me. I can do fine if I play the bass parts myself, but I'm not very good on bass, and my drum playing is worse. I have begun to try to keep things simple to make it easier to learn. Twinkle, Twinkle is probably where I need to stay for a while. Mark, I'm not very adept at using the piano roll, I really need to go over it again and again to understand it. It's probably simpler than I am making it out to be, so I'll keep working at it. I started out just wanting to be able to print sheet music, but then when you find out what can be accomplished with the software it grabs hold of you and you want to do more. You can teach an old dog new tricks, it just takes longer. At least I am having a heck of a lot of fun!!! Thanks for your help! Fred W.

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

If you want to put all your tracks into Composer by using midi file stuff, I have a ton of drum tracks that I've gleaned from all over the place, in a myriad of styles. I picked these up when I was beginning to work on drum tracks, so I could see what elements were involved in different styles. I think you could cut/copy/paste various parts to suit your needs quite easily just from the files themselves, as there are variations and turnarounds in most all of the files. If you're at all interested, let me know and I can email them to you. Then you can just comp a bass line over top of it and then so on with any other tracks you might want to add. It's lots of fun http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif There is also a great resource at http://www.mididrumfiles.com

And I know exactly what you mean about the capabilities of Composer just sort of grabbing you and wanting to do more and more. I'm another example of the infection ;)

ttfn,
Sherry

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi Fred,

The concept of piano roll notation is simple. Perhaps the user interface for editing the piano roll notation is not so simple, but I tried to make it easy.

When you deal with piano roll notation, just imagine a real piano roll and player piano. The piano roll paper has two dimensions (actually rotated 90 degrees from what you see in Composer, but don't think too hard about that.) In one of the dimensions, the location of a punched hole determines the pitch. In the other dimension the length of the hole determines the beginning and ending of the notes.

When you deal with piano roll notation in Composer, you are metaphorically changing the position and length of the hole in the real piano roll paper.

Some Composer users might want to be able to use the mouse to drag one end or the other of the hole to the right or left. Some MIDI sequencers like Cakewalk's let you manipulate the piano roll holes (rectangles) that way. Such a mouse drag technique works for only one note at a time, however. When I designed the user interface for piano roll in Composer, I wanted to support many, many more types of editing tasks than just changing the start or end of a single note. Therefore, I settled on key strokes (such as A+RightArrow to move the attack/start of the note to the right), palette buttons, and menu items. (The menu items are not intended for regular use, but only as a way to learn the key shortcuts, which you can learn just as easily by hovering the mouse over the palette buttons.) Since the mouse drag operation would work only for changing a single note, and since the mouse drag operation would conflict with other interpretations of mouse drags in Composer, I decided to leave that option out of Composer.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Fred and Sherry,

I'll second Sherry's recommendation for drum tracks at http://www.mididrumfiles.com The author of the drum tracks and I became Internet friends when I was looking for some drum tracks when I was taking some jazz piano lessons (in which I failed miserably). Although his drum tracks are inexpensive ($35), I thought I'd save myself a few bucks and offered to trade a copy of MidiNotate for his drum tracks, and he took me up on the offer.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy,

Regarding the DrumFiles site, he used to (don't know if he still does) have an email newsletter, where he had articles, as well as about 8 drumfiles at a time included for free. I got quite a few this way, too. I think the $35 deal is if you want all the gazillion files that he has.

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Mark & Sherry,

Thanks for all the advice. It will be a big help! Yes, Sherry, I would be interested in the drum files you have also.Thanks again!
Fred

[Gracie Knafel (gknafel)]

Hi- I don't know what happened to my post. I clicked on Preview Message and tried to edit it, and it disappeared. Whew, and it was a long one!

Mark, thank you for developing the Midinotate Composer software. I am thrilled with it, and with the help of Sherry, I just completed my first "fake" sheet music. As soon as I learn how, I will share it with the group.

I am a musician in the 'rough'. I play by 'ear' with just a few chords that I have learned. I bought a Technics KN7000 keyboard almost a year ago. I hope to compose new songs and get the ones I have already written in sheet music.

Again, thank you. I will be purchasing the software very soon.

Regards,
Gracie

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi Gracie,

I'm quite pleased that you are enjoying MidiNotate. You're in expert hands with Sherry's assistance.

Please do share your music in the (I guess I subconsciously used the same words) "Share Your Music" section of the forum.

I'm sorry that you lost your original longer post. The next time you add a post to the forum, copy it to the clipboard, and perhaps even paste it in NotePad for safe keeping, before using Preview Message. Then try to duplicate the same steps you took before when you lost the post. The configuration of this forum software has had some usability problems in the past, such that it was too easy to lose a post, but I thought those problems were fixed. However, if there are still some usability problems here, your attempt to repeat the steps might help me learn where the problem is.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hello again Sherry! I have a dumb question. I opened a jazz midi I downloaded to get some ideas on the drum & bass tracks. The guy used 2 tracks for bass, accoustic bass and fretless bass. I guess I can understand the logic there, but the drum line was named "violin" and the instrument shown in the track properties in Composer was violin. I don't get it. The drum track included bass drum, snare and hi-hat. Why and how dey do dat?? Thanks again! Fred W

[Clyde (clyde)]

Hi Fred,
If I can jump in on this one - I think what happens is that midi channel 10 is a drum track regardless of the actual instrument setting.

This may answer your question until Sheryy gives you a more complete (and perhaps more accurate answer) - shes the drum expert.

Cheers .. Clyde

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Thanks Clyde! That makes sense. I see piano used quite often for the drum line, but I figured that was probably because they used the piano to play the drum part.( something I can't do very well). It will be interesting to see what difference it makes to try other instruments there. I just saw it for the first time and hadn't had time to play with it. Fred

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy,

Clyde is quite right about the "channel 10" thing - that is what usually gets interpreted as "drum track", though occasionally it won't. However, if it doesn't, you can usually tell because the track will sound quite rhythmic but not melodic http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

(the following ended up longer than I anticipated, but it is thoroughhttp://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif )
Fred, in the case that the instrument for "drums" showed "Piano", what probably happened is the following. As Mark has (and may do again) pointed out, midi only has certain "pseudo pitches" that it uses for each particular drum instrument. However, how a particular sound engine, which still uses midi input, interprets that can vary somewhat. In my case, I make extensive use of soundfonts, and the default soundfont that I use has something like 5 or 6 "drum kits" that it can use for a drum track.

What I find happens in my scenario, is that if I have the drum track checked as "drum instrument, 5 staff" in the track dialog box, I can change how that drum track sounds by changing the kit that I'm using. How do I change the kit from say "room acoustic kit" to "brushes kit"? I do that in my setup by changing the instrument patch name! And this does change what pseudo pitch gets interpreted as what instrument, so it doesn't adhere precisely to the midi standard. I guess it falls under the "custom drum kit instrument patch numbers" thing http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

So, for my setup, if I have "drum instrument, 5 staff" box checked, and I have "Acoustic grand piano" checked in the instrument patch grid, then I'll hear the acoustic room drum kit in my soundfont. Now, if I go back and change that instrument patch name to "viola" (different patch number), the drum kit that I will hear will change to "brushes kit", and I can indeed hear a different set of percussion instruments, as well as a difference in timbre for them.

Therefore, my guess is that whoever set up the file had access to a number of different "kits", and the instrument patch number got carried over for the instrument name. That happens with my files if I save them to a midi file, and I've made use of the various kits that are available within my soundfont.

I should add that if you use Biab, and you use a different sound engine for Biab than you do for Composer, it can cause some problems if you're wanting the same drum kit sound that you had in Biab. When I first started using Biab, I was using the Sound Canvas that they suggested as the better sound engine. Then I'd go to Composer to fix things up, and the drums would sound just way different. When I finally figured out the difference in the drum kits, and how I could manipulate that, it all fell into place. But boy, did it drive me nuts for a while!

I hope something in here was helpful http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Thank you, Sherry! Yes, it is very helpful. I had some vague suspicions along those lines, but I have never played around with the possibilities. I tried a few instrument sounds and noticed the change, but am not familiar enough with it to know what I am doing. It is a lot of trial and error. I just added drum and bass tracks to "Patsy's Song" and believe it or not, I actually got it on the right meter. I really did it the hard way though. I copied the tracks from a downloaded version of "Alfie" and the drum part fits well. I had to change the key for the bass part, then of course, I had to change each note to fit the chords in my song, because mine is a zillion miles away from "Alfie" changes. I still have to tweak the rhythm in places to make the ritards etc fit better, but I think Mark will tell me to do that with piano roll. I have to experiment a lot more, but now I am almost motivated to add tracks for strings, a brass section and maybe a trumpet or tenor sax solo. It gets crazy doesn't it? Thanks again and thank you also for the drum files. I downloaded some from the web site you mentioned, I can't wait to sample your's. Fred

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

I sent you a "passel" of drum files, all zipped up, to your email this morning. If you didn't get it, please let me know, and I'l send it again.

Yes, it can get addictive http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry, Yep got them yesterday. Thank you very much. I haven't unzipped them yet, but I will this afternoon.

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

Just a sidenote on the usage of two tracks for bass: you mentioned above that one was acoustic bass, and one was fretless bass. If the fretless was "electric fretless", it gives quite a different sort of sound than any other type of bass. It's called "mwah" in bass circles, and is one of many types of sound in the "sonic palette" of electric bass players. If you're playing an instrument "live", it's not a real hard task to get many different sounds out of the bass with just your hands, but obviously you don't quite have that luxury in the midi world, and hence the two separate tracks for two different bass sounds. Also, some songs will use the acoustic bass to lay down a low-end foundation, and have the fretless playing a little higher pitch-wise (more midrange) for added interest.

A friend of mine asked me to record some bass tracks for him on a CD he was working on. He had one song track at the end of his list, that had no title, and only a single guitar track on it. So I just noodled around a bit with my fretless around his chord changes, figuring I could just erase it if he didn't like it. He loved it - and asked me to record some more bass. The song ended up having three bass tracks, one guitar, and vocal - that was all http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Oh, the power of us low-lifes ;)

Yes, Composer makes it more addictive, because of all the different instruments you can add!

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Thank you Sherry,
Yeah, I played the song with just one bass track and the sound wasn't nearly as good. Ain't it nice to learn something new everyday? Now all I'm waiting for is someone to invent a midi saxaphone, then I won't have to edit anything. By they way, guess what I found yesterday? The first song I ever wrote when I was 15 in high school. It's called "Saxaphone Rock". It's not very good, but it is pretty funny. Maybe I could talk you into and arranging it with your guitar and we could have some silly fun. It's just a melody line with words, but maybe you or I could add some chords ( It's old time rock, 3 chords and a cloud of dust) and we could collaborate on it. Think about it. Fred

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

Re. the midi saxophone - it's here http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_id/35204 Laid out just like a sax. You'd plug it in to your computer just like you do your keyboard. It's a little pricey (for my blood, anyway) at about $600, but as I understand it, that's far less than you'd pay for a good acoustic sax.

There are also some midi synths/controllers that you can hook up to a guitar, but that's out of my budget for the next 20 years (gotta get four kids raised and all that ;) ) Then I wouldn't have to edit so much http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

And re. the collaboration for your tune, that could be a scream http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif (and that's good ;) ). Do you have the melody line entered into Composer? If so, maybe you could post it in the "Share Your Music" section, and we could start the collaboration.

Speaking of such, I still need to trim my timpani in Mark's piece. I've been quite busy the last few days trying to tie up some things with my "aunts and uncles" project, as one of my aunts is not doing well right now, and things are kind of hectic with all of the other ones. However, I intend to do some trimming, with tonight being my goal.

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry,
Wow! Somebody's always inventing something before you have shot. $600, huh? That's what I paid for my saxaphone in 1956 and sold it for the same price in 1994 after it had been sitting in the case for 18 years.
Let me fill you in on something. Getting the 4 kids raised doesn't help much. I raised my 4, then 14 foster kids and 2 grand kids and I was just as broke when all that was over. I think you gotta hit the number or something.
No, I don't have the tune in Composer, yet. I'll have to either do it manually or try it on the keyboard. It may take a little while. My wife has been in Baltimore for a week and is coming home today and I am just about exhausted. I think I could sleep for a month. Anyway, it could turn out to be a riot. I still can't believe I wrote that stuff, but I do remember doing it so I can't blame it on someone else. Let you know when I get it ready. Fred

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

You said:

> Somebody's always inventing something before you have shot.

I've seen or heard of these other midi instruments too (so far): harp, accordion, bagpipe(!), bass, organ, and drum pads (essentially e-drums). I'd love to have a midi whistle - that could save me a lot of time entering melody lines!

You also said:
> I raised my 4, then 14 foster kids and 2 grand kids

Bless you, Fred! But you have a lot more than money could ever buy you http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif So do I - I am blessed http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

The good thing about not having the other midi instruments, and having my kids keeping me from spending too much (not to mention how much fun they are in and of themselves) is the fact that my keyboard skills are ever-so-slowly getting a bit better http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Keyboard controllers are by far the least expensive and most prolific midi instrument around.

ttfn,
Sherry

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Sherry and Fred,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I've seen or heard of these other midi instruments too (so far): harp, accordion, bagpipe(!), bass, organ, and drum pads (essentially e-drums). I'd love to have a midi whistle - that could save me a lot of time entering melody lines!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>The most amazing MIDI instrument I've heard is a MIDI violin. I heard one many years ago. The MIDI violin picks up not only the chromatic scale pitches, but also tones in between, rendered, I assume, as MIDI pitch bends. A violin is so expressive because it has continuous pitches. The performer was able to transform that via MIDI into different instrument sounds such as a saxaphone. A good saxphone player can do so much with pitch bends. The violin player was able to make an incredibly convincing sax sound-- probably much better than a MIDI keyboard player can do with a pitch bend wheel, although that can be pulled off quite well also. I keep telling myself that I need to hunt down some local MIDI violin players and listen to them for pleasure.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy,

Speaking of using your instrument of choice for "mimicking" other instruments, there's a fellow named Phil Keaggy who is a guitarist supreme. Nowadays he does a lot of his own accompaniment using a MIDI hookup on his guitar and then using various instrument sounds much like what you mentioned above for the violinist. He did a Christmas album a few years back which was done solely via this method. He had all sorts of styles and articulations nailed down solid - it was absolutely incredible.

And it is very nice to listen to http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

OK, Sherry, You asked for it! Me and my big mouth.... I don't know if
I'll ever live this down, but I'm too old to care. You have to
understand it was 1954 and I was an "egotistical prima donna" (I say
that because I believed myself to be the sax player in the song. I
know it's bad, but I thought it was pretty cool at the time. (you had
to be there). Anyway, I hope you are up for a good laugh. You're right
it could turn out to be a scream! OK, I stalled long enough, here it
is! OH, P.S. it's written a little stiff, but you'll get the idea of
the phrasing. Fred <center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifSaxophone Rock
Saxophone Rock.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Saxophone_Rock-27023.not) (39.8 k)</td></tr></table></center>

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

What a hoot! So what kind of chord progression do you have in mind? And what kinds of "stuff" do you have going through your head when you play it (or hum it or whatever)? I know you said "rock", but that can encompass a lot (believe it or not Mark ;) ) in the variations of style. Are we talking Bill Haley and the Comets, or Chubby Checker, or the Rolling Stones, or what? And I'm just dying to hear the "saxophone break" http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

If you don't feel as comfortable at the keyboard with getting things in "right", you might try what I do (and I'm gosh-awful at the keyboard). You have to be able to block out what you hear from the keyboard pitch-wise, and just go with the rhythms for my method, but what I do is to listen to the metronome and then sing in my head and bang out the rhythm on the keyboard. I miss a lot of notes (I am sloooowly getting better), but it's much easier for me to go back and fix the pitches of the notes than it is to try and correct the rhythms. So I then go back and correct the pitches, and I usually can get a pretty decent sounding track with that method. YMMV*

The reason that I'm asking about what you're hearing, is that I can hear this - with a slightly different feel in the melody line - as easily being a Jerry Lee Lewis style of song. It'd fit his personality, too, except it'd be a piano player then http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

*Your Mileage May Vary

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry, Are you still laughing? Funny you should mention Jerry Lee Lewis. He sat in with my band at a place called Unity Hall in Baltimore at about that time. He sat in on guitar, but he could only play guitar in the key of C, so he used a clamp on the frets. If I remember, he may have played everthing on the piano in C, too. I wasn't up too much on chord progression at that time, I was classical clarinetist up until then and all I could do was read. When I started playing sax, I just played and let the guitar player worry about the chords. I did the notation in C, but I believe it should be in F. Probably back and forth between F7 and G7 ( maybe with a Bb7 thrown in for good measure). What's going on in my head? I think I hear you doing a vocal and playing guitar. The sax break is long gone. I don't think I could do it on the keyboard. ( I can't make it growl ). heh heh! Anyway, do whatever you want with it. Whatever you do will be a major improvement. Thanks for the tip on getting the meter right and editing the notes afterward. I'll also have to start using the metronome or put in the rhythm first. Fred

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Sherry,
Mark finally woke me up to the fact I need to use the metronome when recording, so here is the more intended phrasing for sax rock. I did the entry manually in the song file and it came out stiff. This is closer to how I would read the original manuscript. Sorry! Fred<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifPhrasing
Sax Rock Phrasing.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Sax_Rock_Phrasing-27038.not) (14.3 k)</td></tr></table></center>

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

This is actually much more like what I hear in my head http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif I've been fiddling around with some drum stuff to get the "groove", and we'll see what goes from there. This is a fun little tune - thanks for sharing it with us, and inviting us to work on it. More later - right now I have to go out and enjoy some sunshine http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Gracie Knafel (gknafel)]

I am getting up the nerve to post my question. I am notating my daughter's song, and I'm stuck. It has verse 1, then chorus, then verse 2 (which is a little different then v1, so it has to be noted), then same chorus, then ending. I have successfully noted v1, chorus, v2, repeat to chorus, but I can't get from the chorus to the ending. It plays v2 again. I have noted the .not file by playing 'by ear' from the keyboard to the computer in Fake style. Thank you for your help! Gracie <center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifKayle's Song
There At The Cross Eternal Life_Fake.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/There_At_The_Cross_Eternal_Life_Fake-27041.not) (48.1 k)</td></tr></table></center>

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Fred,

I just downloaded a mess of saxophone soundfonts, and I'll give 'em a run through sometime soon. Maybe I'll try and make a "comparison" song and post it on my Sound Click page so you can hear what the possibilities are the cheap route http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Meanwhile, maybe we should move the song to it's own new thread in the "Share your music" section under "Rock and Roooooollllllll" http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello Gracie,

Did you daughter write this song? It's nicely written.

You can use the Score / Repeat Instructions command to control how Composer plays back repeats, endings, choruses, etc.

I noticed that the notes tend to lag behind the beat by a 16th or 8th note. This might have happend because the metronome was incorrectly set to a MIDI device that has a lag. The most common example of a MIDI device with a lag is the Microsoft GS Wavetable Softsynth. Double-click the metronome button to assign the metronome to a different MIDI device, or to the computer speaker beep sound.

It's also possible that your performance actually did lag behind the metronome. You might have to practice recording a few times to get the hang of playing closer to the metronome.

There are some different ways that you can fix the notes to align on beats, but the techniques are somewhat advanced. In the upcoming Composer version 1.1, there will probably be some new options to make this task easier.

Good luck finishing the piece. Please don't hesitate to ask if you have more how-to questions. And share the piece with us when you're done. Start a new thread somewhere under Notation Software Support Forum » Share Your Music, rather than in this Fill'er Up thread, which is getting too long for forum readers to follow.

Cheers
-- Mark

[Gracie Knafel (gknafel)]

Mark: You are correct. The midi device was set to Microsoft GS Wavetable Softsynth. I will change it. Thank you, and yes, my daughter did write the song, but it is not on sheet music. I learned to play it on the keyboard, and we never got it noted. This is one of my goals to get all of the music we have written in sheet music. We have some really pretty songs, but none of us know anything about Theory. We just have a God given talent and love for music. So I am really excited about Midinotate Composer. I have a big learning curve and get stuck on basics, but I hope to learn quickly. Sherry has helped me a lot, and she has encouraged me to post on the forum. This forum is a real blessing! I purchased the software today, so I am one of the group now. Gracie

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Gracie, Welcome to the group! As Mark said, your daughter's song is nicely written. Obviously, you are not going to have any problems getting all your songs notated. I am in the "basics" stages myself, but you will find the help you get in this forum is priceless and it won't take long at all. Nice to have you aboard. Fred Winterling

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hi Gracie,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

...so I am one of the group now<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Yes, you are! And welcome!

Cheers
-- Mark

[Larry]

Hi Mark &amp; Sherry:
I've been messing with this piece for a while. Maybe others on the forum can offer suggestions.
I am aware that some sections are un-playable without three hands, and I'll work on those areas. The harmonies, voicing and syncopation keeps me awake at night (days too, sometimes), however, the piece seems a bit manic in places and I've lived with it too long to remain objective. It seems to have gotten away from me.
Ideas? Suggestions?
Thanks, Larry
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifA classic-ish piano piece. It's name says it all.
Stupidipity 17.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stupidipity_17-27581.not) (318.6 k)</td></tr></table></center>

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Larry,

Very nice!! I don't know if I am qualified to offer you any suggestions. You are a far more skillful artist than I. But, I will tell you what I hear and perhaps offer a way for you to be able to sleep a little better. I don't believe the piece has gotten away from you. What I feel is that you actually have two pieces here. So I have two thoughts. I would consider separating them at measure #87 ( and if you feel that would make them too short, you could possibly expand on both of them separately) or another idea would be to make the last half the piece the middle. Maybe bring the first half back in at the end and finish it with that theme ....or vice versa. Anyway, I like your style. Do you play jazz? It sounds like you could be the second coming of Thelonious Monk! Keep up the good work!
Fred Winterling

[Lawrence Pregler (larry)]

Hi Fred:
Hey, thanks for the comments. I'm a hack guitar player with tunes running in
my head but no real training to get them out. I, like Sherry, am a church
musician and often re-arrange our praise songs using music software with
Composer as the final stages (the more I dig into Composer the more useful
it becomes, and with Mark responsive to increasing its capabilities I can
give up some stages I do in other programs). However, your suggestion to
segment the parts into an A B A set sounds like something to try on this
piece.

The Monk! - You throw that kind of praise too easily ;^> but how kind.
Thanks.
Yes, I do play at jazz, and listen to it a great deal. I have over a
thousand (vinyl) disks collected and still listen to the early ones as well
as the recent CDs.

I'll work at the piece as I can, and give the forum updates if desired. If
others have any input, I'll incorporate them if they are workable.
Thanks again,
Larry

[Lawrence Pregler (larry)]

Hello Fred:
I have altered the file at measure #177, let me know what you think.
I have transitioned the sections rather than section them.
Make a great day,
Larry
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStupidipity 18
Stupidipity 18.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stupidipity_18-27585.not) (337.2 k)</td></tr></table></center>

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Larry,

The transition at measure 177 works. It's a much simpler way to approach it than my suggestion. Good job! The ending fits better, too. BTW, are you sleeping now? I thought I heard someone snoring.

Ah, The Monk! I once sat in with him one of the after hours "dives" on 8th Avenue in NYC. I was on the road in the late 1950's with a Top 40/ Variety band playing at a club in Paterson,NJ. My trumpet player, drummer and I used to go there after our gig to listen or to sit in when asked. We were sitting in one night when in walked The Monk and Yusef Latief. What a blast! A little later two tenor sax men from Basie's band (Frank West and Frank Foster) also popped in to sit in. Being a tenor man also, I thought that would be a good time for me to take a break.
Those were the days.
Best,
Fred

[Lawrence Pregler (larry)]

Hi Fred:
Yeah! That would have been a real pants wetter siding with a legend.
How curious... I lived in Paterson NJ in the early 40's (we're telling our ages I fear) a few blocks from where Lou Costello lived.
I thank you for your feedback, and I had a great nap this afternoon.
I replayed the tune and was still uneasy with some syncopations that felt awkward. I'll look another day, but thanks. It's nice to connect with someone after facing this screen plastered with music and notes to myself and..., etc.

[M G Jacobs (mgj32)]

Hi Larry,

I like the piece. It seems to have an internal logic, and I don't know as I'd want to change very much. My first impression was that I was hearing a re-incarnation of Bach in a body with Andre the Giant's hands. Subsequent listenings have done little to change the first impression.

There are a few places, such as measures 153-155, where there is a reach that most people couldn't make, but in many of them switching a note from one hand to the other and/or using the sustaining pedal would obviate the necessity of a third hand. But in a place or two (the 3rd and 4th beats of measure 153) something will have to give by an octave, I suppose, as in the F#3 and E3 moving up and some of the RH notes becoming LH notes. But for the most part, anyone who can comfortably reach a 10th could play it, if he/she has the reach and is quite accomplished.

I started by saying I wouldn't want to change much, but I wonder if making the piece for piano plus an instrument, such as a clarinet, would disrupt its internal integrity. Not a suggestion; just wondering.

all best,
mgj

[Lawrence Pregler (larry)]

Hi mgj:
Thanks for your interest and suggestions. First 'The Monk' and then 'Bach', yowee! (Andre - didn't he play with Coletrane?, just kiddin' ;^>)
I did revise the measures you suggested, then further examined the rest of the piece with the same eye and made other changes as well.
I guess I should be more aware of the instrument (and performer)I'm writing for since the note spans can be done on my guitar easier than a pianist could on a piano.
I'm never sure of the meter or key when I do this kind of thing, just change the key when I get too many # or b's to one that has fewer and guess at the meter by the way the notes fall. That's why it's named what I named it.
The feedback you and Fred have given sure have helped, and I appreciate all the help I can get.
Larry
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStupidipity #19
Stupidipity 19.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stupidipity_19-27588.not) (337.2 k)</td></tr></table></center>

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Larry,
So you lived in Paterson? The memories I have of that city will be etched in my mind for the rest of my life. For instance... Our agent messed up our road dates and we found ourselves out of work for 3 weeks after our gig in Paterson. We did not want to tell our wives because they would have made us come home. So we agreed on a scheme. We had very little money and we decided to stay in Paterson and pool our money so we could survive. We bought a 5 gallon carton of cheap wine and, a greasy spoon next to the hotel advertised "Hot Texas Wieners" for 25 cents. I'll never forget that sign. We ate hot Texas wieners for breakfast and dinner every day for 3 weeks and skipped lunch. The timing was really wonderful because Thanksgiving fell into that period. We could only imagine what we were missing out on at home. We found a bar that was offering free Thanksgiving turkey dinners. So we stood in line at least a block long and waited for our free dinner along with all the homeless people. Can you imagine the feeling standing there in Italian silk suits (with holes in our socks and underwear) and being stared at by everybody in line? We didn't care. We were actually starving. We ate like pigs. It's funny now, but it took us a while to laugh at that predicament.
Anyway, I am having a lot of fun with your piece. I took your 6/8 section and added bass and drums with a jazz waltz beat. It looks like it will be a good while before I can finish it but if I can put it together, I might also add guitar. I'm having trouble with the meter so I might have to double time the the drum part or speed up the tempo. It's not yet coming out like my mind hears it, but I'm persistent. I hope you don't mind my messing up your creation. I'm just having some fun and it's a challenge.Thanks!
Fred

[Lawrence Pregler (larry)]

Hi again Fred:
Fun is what it's all about. Go ahead with what you'd like to do. It will be interesting to see a different take on the piece.
Larry
PS. I'm getting a picture of the band eating Texas hots every meal. Some of my 'hippy' days were like that.

[M G Jacobs (mgj32)]

Hi Larry,

This looks pretty easily playable--virtuoso down to 4th grade level ;) I miss the fullness of presence in the other version, and I particularly liked the way it ended on the broken E minor chord. On the other hand, the melodic content is more apparent in this version. I find myself thinking it would be great if the versions could both be heard at once, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

Torn between the two versions, I'm not sure what I'd do if it were mine. Probably, I would wind up keeping the other one and modifying only those few places, in one way or another, where the reach required is too much for an ordinary hand. I'd also keep the second. It's not too difficult and it also would make a good study in playing the rhythm of one hand against the other, not to mention the more distinct melodic line.

Unfortunately, I know little about the guitar. I have a piece for flute, strings, and Indian drum and guitar, which is stalled until I find out whether a guitar, or two guitars, or even three, can actually play it. But I can imagine that it would be easier to play widely separated notes in a chord. Your composition, however, seems very right for the piano.

best,
mgj

[Lawrence Pregler (larry)]

Hi mgj:
When I started in midi I didn't ever concern myself with whether a song was playable with a real instrument. I considered the midi process an instrument of its own. I wasn't hampered by normal physical limits of a performer or whether a band had two or three measures of several oboe (how many bands can afford to hire three oboe players for three measures), I just wrote to create the sound I wanted to hear.
You're right! when listening to the two pieces the sonics are much richer in the earlier version. The piece will probably never reach commercial status and I'll not worry about complaints from keyboardists who can't make the stretch. I think now my task is to see if I can achieve the same sonics and still be playable. However, I'm torn, and maybe don't even care if it's playable as long as it's listenable.
I started in music at the age of nine on the accordian (I think I could make the reaches on that keyboard) (I also hated the accordian) and twelve years switched to guitar. I've mostly played by ear and the guitar was self taught. Midi was a way for me to express what I heard in my head rather than write for a real physical instrument with its limits.
The majority of my writing is with the mouse and occasionaly my midi keyboard or midi guitar. I'm sure that many of my pieces are unplayable, but listenable. Even so, I guess I should be concious of whether a piece 'is playable' to learn how. Thus, this thread.
You and Fred have been a real help and what you have challenged me to do was a learning experience. It also helped me to dig into Composer learning more about its capabilities.
That all said... maybe you could put up your piece and let others on the forum offer suggestions as you did for me.
Make a great day...Larry

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy guys,

This has been a really fun thread to follow! I've been listening in, learning some, and just being amazed at your connections (and the fact that you let me hang out with you - thanks http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif ).

Larry, my ears perked up when you said "midi guitar". I'm curious what you use. Is it a dedicated MIDI guitar, or is it one of the pickup arrangements mounted on an acoustic/electric guitar? Would you mind sharing a bit about your equipment?

ttfn,
Sherry

[Lawrence Pregler (larry)]

Hi Sherry:
I have an old Roland GK1 with a GK2 pickup mounted on an old Squier electric guitar. Roland had newer since I got my rig but I was happy with mine (and I didn't have the money to upgrade).
The sensitivity and innability to filter out 'artifacts' (when I pressed a string at the fret it might trigger a midi event even without plucking - but it's called a phantom note because it is only a few ticks long and easy to delete from the file using a sequencer.
I can set it up to record the individual strings on a seperate track (midi channel) so the tracks from one to six carries the nots respectively from each string.
Pitch bend (PB) is read by string as well. Any track with unesential pitch bends are seperated in the sequencer and the PB's are deleted from those tracks leaving only the essential string PB's. If you record all on one track, then do a PB on one string ALL strings will act on the PB - yuck.
I have done live performances with it with these results:
1- The phantom notes sound making me sound like Les Paul
2 Sometimes the phantom note is not the correct sound because it may pickup my finger touching at a fret other than the target - owww
3- I have assigned the two lowest strings E and A to a bass in the sequencer and then my thumb picking had better be right on. The different instrument sound stands out.
4- I'm a picker by habit and my old fingers don't always finger AT the fret anymore so I may get additional artifacts or phantoms.
With practice, the thing does a good job.
There are some dedicated guitars out there, notably the Godin and they make recording to midi pretty easy.
Keyboards are generally note-on, note off instruments with wheel (pitch bend)capabilities. A midi guitar is constantly in pitchbend (unless shut off in the converter module, which is a whole 'nother issue for sound reproduction) and needs to do a lot of work. It is like working with a fretless bass. The better you manage the fretboard the cleaner intonation and correctness of pitch you get. The midi guitar is sometimes like fretless because often the strings are pushed slightly across the fretboard even with near precise fingering. Not noticable in performance without a midi rig, but the pickup slightly exagerates them.
Hope this brief overview helps.
Larry

[Lawrence Pregler (larry)]

Hi again Sherry:
I see no issue with hanging out with anyone in this forum. It is why I posted on a 'public' forum. Glad your here as well as the others. I just hope the lurkers join in and either give yea and nay to us, or contribute in suggesting ways. Either way I'm glad to have had some responce, and willing to give others the same.
A great day at you... Larry

[Sherry Crann (sherry)]

Howdy Larry,

Thanks for detailing your setup! I've seen the Roland, as well as Godin and a couple other "MIDI specific" guitars. I was just curious what you used, and what your experience has been. The only other person I know of who uses a MIDI guitar setup extensively is Phil Keaggy, and he is absolutely amazing!

Your reference to it being similar to fretless was one point I was curious about, as it seemed to me that getting articulations out of a guitar would be much easier for me, as that is the instrument I'm most familiar with. I also play electric bass (I'd love to get a "big fiddle") and have converted my old viola electric to fretless, which is a whole different ballgame than playing with frets http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif So I'm learning even more fret/fingerboard skills, which I actually use in real life, and would love to be able to use those with Composer.

My comment about letting me hang out with you guys was more observation of what a really cool medium this forum is. I would never be able to meet musicians with the experience and knowledge that you guys have where I live. (remember - where I'm at, a "chamber concert" means the bluegrass band is _inside_ the barn rather than in the barnyard http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif ). So the fact that I can "meet" you, and that we can interact, is just a major blessing for me, and I appreciate it immensely! We are developing a great community here, and that's a Very Good Thing http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ttfn,
Sherry

[David Jacklin (dj)]

Sherry wrote: a "chamber concert" means the bluegrass band is _inside_ the barn

As the old joke goes: "I like both kinds of music -- country AND western."

[Mark Walsen (markwa)]

Hello Larry,

I listened to #17 a few days and #19 a few minutes ago. The main change I observed-- the return to the earlier material at the end of the piece-- helps to unify it as a single composition, I think.

The modal tonality and syncopation of first section reminds me of Dello Joio's 3rd piano sonata, written, I'm not sure, in the 1950's. I don't expect anyone around here to be familiar with it, any more than anyone should expect me to know... you name it... most big band tunes from the 40's. Any way, take the Dello Joio comparison as a compliment; he's a good composer.

I find the fuge-like section engaging-- sort of three fourths Baroque and one fourth jazz. Elements of syncopation have always been important in counterpoint. You took it a little bit further by mixing in some jazz feel with the Baroque. Nice composition technique in this section, such as some convincing sequences.

I found the 12:8 meter difficult to decipher. I kept hearing 2:4 instead of 12:8, three 2:4 meters per original 12:8. So, in Composer, I just changed the 12:8 to 2:4 and then the beats made sense to me. In a later section, changing 12:8 to 2:4 also works, but the barlines then need to be shifted by an 8th beat here or there. Just my opinion or ear here about the meter.

So, how did you get these notes into Composer? With the mouse, at a MIDI keyboard, MIDI guitar, or some combination? Whatever way you did it, you did a lot of musical work.

Cheers
-- Mark

[M G Jacobs (mgj32)]

Hi Larry,

Quote: maybe you could put up your piece and let others on the forum offer suggestions as you did for me.

This is the piece I mentioned in the earlier post--the one at a stand-still because I know nothing about and need to find out about the guitar before working more on it.

The piece is from about 1982, or thereabouts. A colleague was to be married, with the ceremony on the rim of Canyon de Chelly, which is in Navajo Country. Thus the title of the piece and the Indian Drum in the score. His brother played the cello and I played the flute. He asked if I couldn't write something especially for the wedding for those two instruments. A drummer was to provide some rhythm and on the morning of the wedding it was discovered that a friend of the bride had her guitar in the back seat. There was an extra xerox of the sheet music and she had a half hour to look at it, so she sat in an improvised.

When it came to doing the 25 year later version of the piece, I listened to all the GM guitars available and chose the one that sounded like what she had, and the nylon acoustic is, I think, an exact match. However, I don't know its range (or if maybe I would need to add a bass version), and I don't know if what I have written is playable, by one or even two guitars.

The simple thing would be to make the guitar part for harpsichord, but I want to keep it small and mobile--4 violins, a couple of cellos, in addition to the guitar or guitars and the drum. Any help would be appreciated.

all best,
mgj
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifde Chelly
Canyon de Chelly (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Canyon_de_Chelly__Wedding_Piece__Indian_Drum_versi on__Oct_28-27598.not) (376.7 k)</td></tr></table></center>

[Fred Winterling (harbor1)]

Hi Larry,

Thought you might like to hear how I destroyed your wonderful piece. I had to increase the tempo, so I just pinched your toes to make your fingers faster. I had fun. It actually motivated me to start writing a jazz waltz of my own. It's not my forte, so I don't know how long it will take, but I love a challenge. BTW, you should consider changing the name of the tune. It is far from stupid. Anyway, here is the attempt.
Fred
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifStupidity with jazz waltz tempo
Stupidity_18_JazzWaltz.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Stupidity_18_JazzWaltz-27611.not) (261.0 k)</td></tr></table></center>