Swing

[Alek Yasko (kombrig)]

In this threat I'm going to upload swings and nothing else.

And right away I have a question to your, guys.
Maybe I'm mistaking, but I suppose that the time-signature for the swing or blues music can be non other, but 6\8?!?!

Now, I want you to compare 2 arrangements of the well known piece "New York, New York".

1. I found this arrangement for piano in the Web:
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gif
NY-1.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/NY-1-33025.not) (47.7 k)</td></tr></table></center>
I did not change even a single note here, just thoroughly copied that. But it sounds horrible! Isn't it?

2. This is a short version (without improvis.) how do I play this thing:
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gif
NY-2.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/NY-2-33026.not) (69.7 k)</td></tr></table></center>
Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is sounds for me like a swing!

So, what do you think?

[Alek Yasko (kombrig)]

The fantom of the discussion is appear on our horizon:

Fred Winterling (harbor1) wrote:
--Not necessarily. It all depends on the interpretation. I find 4\4 to be more suited to swing and blues. I use 6\8 mainly for a jazz waltz.--

Herbert WENDE (herbert) wrote:
--Blues and Swing is definitely played in 4/4 time. However there is no reason why there can’t be exceptions. Your 6/8 NY sounds really good and is superior to the 4/4 version of NY...--

Very well, gentlemen! I could be agreed with you, if you'll show us your evidence of the GOOD arrangement of swing in 4\4 or another 4-bits time signature. I'm pretty sure you've got it in your archives. Do you?
So, bring it on and we'll see how GOOD is that!

Kombrig.

[Alek Yasko (kombrig)]

Well, I have to bring my apology to you, gentlemen.
I have found many swing compositions beautifully arranged in 4-bits time signature.
But I hope, my arrangements of swing (in 6\8) does not sounds worse!
Take a listen to these old gorgeous tunes:
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gif
Gigolo.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Gigolo-33147.not) (190.2 k)</td></tr></table></center>
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gif
Blue_Moon.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Blue_Moon-33148.not) (66.7 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Do you feel a swing drive there, guys?

If you don't, we have an alternative here:
1. You are completely deaf (I'm sorry!), OR
2. I have no idea how IS A SWING RHYTHM pattern sounds!

But if you do... Then, probably we can talk about the new manner of swing &amp; blues arrangements. Don't we?

I have a little story to tell you about how I became to 6\8 arrangements.
So, if you're interested, just let me know...

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Kombrig,

You said:

” And right away I have a question to your, guys. Maybe I'm mistaking, but I suppose that the time-signature for the swing or blues music can be non other, but 6\8?!?!”

You also said:

“Do you feel a swing drive there, guys?

If you don't, we have an alternative here:
1. You are completely deaf (I'm sorry!), OR
2. I have no idea how IS A SWING RHYTHM pattern sounds!”

There is no Swing Rhythm Pattern if you talk about Swing as a style of jazz, played some 70 years ago by Benny Goodman Artie Shaw, Glenn Miller and many others and to some extend up to the present time. This style of jazz was mainly played in the time measure of 4/4 or other binary measures. There are a good number of exceptions.

There is swing or swinging, a way of playing jazz in relation to rhythm and timing. This is only apparent in the performance of the music, it can not be notated

There is the dance style Swing, which has lots of variations. Many variations are danced in 6/8 time. I am no expert here. My wife tells me, that on the dance floor, I appear to have two left feet and my legs are totally without any coordination.

If you take a 4/4 song, you can divide each beat into triplets with perhaps some adjustment to the melody line. If you then split each bar into two bars, you have 6 beats to each bar. You have now a song with twice the number of bar in 6/8 time. This is the case for instance in your arrangement of Blue Moon. The phrase structure consists now of 16 bar groups, rather than the normal 8 bar groups. This is a give away for the conversion. It sounds really good, but I think, that you would get a different, more rhythmically pronounced effect, if triplets were used in the melody line and four beats to the bar for the accompaniment, without splitting each bar, but leaving the song in 4/4. Your arrangement would clearly be better for dancing.

So far, I have assumed that your accordion is one of those newer Hi Tech instruments with a midi connection. This is not at all clear from your arrangements. I have however noticed that the left hand of your scores could often not be played by an ordinary piano accordion. Perhaps, you could give a detailed description of possibilities, techniques and limitations of a Bayan. Midi recordings from your instrument would be appreciated if this is possible


Marry Christmas and lots of success for the New Year,

Herbert

[Alek Yasko (kombrig)]

Hi, Herbert!

I'm sorry for the delay. I've been an extremely busy last a couple of days. But today I found a time for an answer.

You wrote:
--This style of jazz was mainly played in the time measure of 4/4 or other binary measures. There are a good number of exceptions.--

What are you talking about, Herbert?
Do you want to say that my arrangements is nothing, but exceptions?
I can assure you, brother, that a lotsa swings is coming. This rhythm is widely spreaded in the world. I'm going to publish soon French, Italian and even Russian swing arrangements. And you know what? 100% of them I've made in 6\8! And all the blueses, as well...
By the way all of those .not, sounds like an originals! Do you want me to post along with .not an original .mp3's? I could do it...

...and further you said:
--This is only apparent in the performance of the music, it can not be notated--

However, I already did it! Didn't I?

--My wife tells me, that on the dance floor, I appear to have two left feet and my legs are totally without any coordination.--

I don't get it, Herbert! If dancers are feeling the rhythm, they're dancing. If they don't - they're falling down.
You've never answered me: do YOU feel a swing pattern in my arrangements?

--You have now a song with twice the number of bar in 6/8 time. This is the case for instance in your arrangement of Blue Moon.--

So? Who cares? Only the successful result is important! Isn't it?
I went to the 'Style: Blues' page and downloaded 'Crystal Blues' by Matt Gruen. This piece made in 4\4. Actually, this is not a blues (in a rhythmic matter), but it's pretending to be a swing.
I was trying hard to imaging any drive of the mentioned above, but I couldn't... Sorry.
Unfortunately, I couldn't to listen 'Movin'On' by David Jacklin, because the unknown format for this piece was posted.

You said, Herbert:
--If you take a 4/4 song, you can divide each beat into triplets with perhaps some adjustment to the melody line. If you then split each bar into two bars, you have 6 beats to each bar.--

That is the point, Herbert!
Now, try to imaging, my friend, that you've got a software, which has NO:
1. a triplets feature,
2. all possible time signatures is 4\4, 3\4, 6\8 and none others.
How are you going to arrange a blues or swing then? You've just admited: an each of 2 bar-group of swing\blues rhythms consists 3 notes 3+3. But 4\4 time signature has 4 groups: 2+2+2+2. Isn't it? And 3\4 t.s. has 3 groups: 2+2+2!

That's what I had in the past. So, I've got no choice, but to arrange patterns we're talking to, by my way: through the 6\8 t.s.

Herbert:
--So far, I have assumed that your accordion is one of those newer Hi Tech instruments with a midi connection.--

Take a look at these pictures, herr Wende:
http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/33259.jpg
This is an original Russian Bayan I've bought 35 years ago, in 1971.

http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/33260.jpg
This one, as you can see - is German button accordion (5 rows), and a guitar.
All instruments are NATURAL with NO midi connection or whatsoever.

--This is not at all clear from your arrangements.--

Of course not! In my arrangements and compositions the ONLY INSTRUMENTS I USE is: my mind, colossal performing experience of different musical instruments, deep knowledge in music theory and imagination. That's about it...
So, I can tell you: "I am an old-fashion musician!"

--I have however noticed that the left hand of your scores could often not be played by an ordinary piano accordion.--

Correct! This my way of arrangement of the left hand. And I believe, that way is exclusive enough.

--Perhaps, you could give a detailed description of possibilities, techniques and limitations of a Bayan. Midi recordings from your instrument would be appreciated if this is possible--

Patience, my friend! I'm going to upload my music soon. I'll give you the link.

Happy new year and good luck.
Kombrig.

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Kombrig,

Thank you for your reply. I think, you have misunderstood some of what I had said. With some other, there will remain disagreement.

In music anything is possible and should be.

I wish you a very successful and prosperous New Year,

Herbert

[Alek Yasko (kombrig)]

Hi, Herbert!

-------------------
I think, you have misunderstood some of what I had said.
-------------------
I'm afraid you're right. I think it's because you did not illustrate you reasons by any music examples. I did.
Well,I hope this isn't the end of our conversation. Let's start over...

This is my statement.
I consider the SWING as a "LIMP FOOT" rhythm pattern. It sounds like:
(Too-to, Cha-ta; Too-to, Cha-ta), where the second beat twice shorter than the first one. Graphically in looks like quarter note + eighth, or 8-th + 16-th.
Thus, the proper arrangement could be made ONLY in a bar-group of 3 notes 3+3 6\8 or 12\8.

You may say that you can arrange that in binary measures like quarter and dot + eighth or 8-th and dot + 16-th. No, you can't, Herbert! Because in this case 1-st beat is going to be 3 TIMES LONGER than the 2-nd. You see what I'm saying? That's gonna be TOO MUCH LIMPNESS!

So, the only way is to put a triplets in every measure - LITERALLY!
As you can see, this is the hard way and I'm offering the easy one.

You don't have to "listen up and obey!", Herbert. All I want is: to acknowledge that Kombrig have found some different and easier path to arrange a such of patterns.

By the way, a lot's of music categories could be arranged in a "LIMP FOOT": rock-n-roll, ballade and even marches! I do have such an arrangements. And it sounds as exactly as an original pieces.

Now, I'm going to show you 2 simple examples. This is an intro for a well known thing "Wonderful World" by L. Armstrong. One of them I've made in BLUES, another - in SWING. I'd like to ask you to arrange those 4 measures - by your way! - in any binary measures. Be my guest, use exactly the same notes.
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gif
Swing.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Swing-33343.not) (9.7 k)</td></tr></table></center> - swing
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gif
Blues.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Blues-33344.not) (13.5 k)</td></tr></table></center> - blues

Good luck, Herbert.

And be happy, wealthy and healthy in 2007!
Kombrig.

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Kombrig,

You seem to be pretty passionate about rearranging pop music to 6/8 time. I see no point in changing the music of The Beatles or Louis Armstrong into something else. But as I said, anything is possible in music and should be. My musical interests are not in pop music but in Jazz and in Classical Music.

Here is a challenge for you. Why don’t you change Beethoven’s 5th Symphony to 6/8 time. If you are not to busy you could also do Wagner’s Ring Cycle in 6/8 time.

I seriously think, that you would have a chance for success outside Russia and perhaps also in Russia, if you would produce authentic Russian Folk Music. I quite liked your Ukr dance.not.

Thank you, for wishing me wealth. This is what I always wanted but have not sufficiently achieved. Thank you for wishing me good health. So far I am ok here.

Best wishes and like wise the very best of health for you, lots of success and may you become stinking rich during this new year,

Herbert

[Alek Yasko (kombrig)]

Hi, Herbert!

I didn't mean to embarrass you somehow! All I wanted - it is to show you some new way to arrange "limp foot" rhythms.
And of course, it's an absolutely impossible to arrange Beethoven or Wagner in 6\8 t. s.
Well, let’s just forget what’d I say... I apologize.

Now, take a look here:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=646434

Finally, I've got my page at soundclick.com and from now on you won't have any troubles to listen or to download my music!

You mentioned once:
----------------
I have however noticed that the left hand of your scores could often not be played by an ordinary piano accordion.
----------------
As you can hear, I am able to play by my left hand ANYTHING. Even something unthinkable!

Best wishes.
Kombrig.

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Kombrig,

No need to apologize. Just keep your good sense of humor and we will be the very bet of friends for ever.

Naturally my suggestion of doing a 6/8 job on Beethoven or Wagner’s Ring was not to be taken seriously.

The English word “Swing” has many meanings. I have given you three musical definitions of the word. Other non-musical definitions would be the swinging of a pendulum or a “swinging couple”, having a different meaning again.

A “limp foot” rhythm is totally the opposite of what a jazz musician would understand of swinging in connection with a musical performance.

When I said: “I have however noticed that the left hand of your scores could often not be played by an ordinary piano accordion”, I meant just that. On a piano accordion, on the left hand buttons, in the row for C for instance, you start off with the note of e, followed with c and followed with the chord of c with the notes of that chord in the order of e, g, c. Your LH in your arrangements differs. My request to you was to explain the BAYAN you play, in reference to the LH side of the instrument.

Best wishes,

Herbert

[Alek Yasko (kombrig)]

Herbert!

-------------------------------
Naturally my suggestion of doing a 6/8 job on Beethoven or Wagner’s Ring was not to be taken seriously.
-------------------------------
Nevertheless, I accept your challenge. If you'll go to 'Classic' thread, you're going to see and hear such arrangements.

-------------------------------
The English word 'Swing' has many meanings. I have given you three musical definitions of the word.
-------------------------------
You're exactly right! This is a matter of terminology. And I showed you my way of arrangements. Unfortunately, you gave me nothing but the "words". I can't believe you don't have any swing arrangements in your archive. Do you, Herbert? So, why don't you show me then how you figure this rhythm out?

-------------------------------
Your LH in your arrangements differs. My request to you was to explain the BAYAN you play, in reference to the LH side of the instrument.
-------------------------------
I'd be glad to, Herbert!
Welcome to 'Off topic discussion &amp; comments' thread and I'll explain it to you there.

Be happy.
Kombrig.

[Alek Yasko (kombrig)]

I have checked out almost all threads on "SHARE YOUR MUSIC" page and I realized that forum member's has supplied .mid format to most of publications. It gives me an idea to do the same thing.

I'm gonna start with this thread. I've upgraded and updated all my previously published .not files and I'm going to show you what's came out.
I hope you'll love it! Check this out:

BLUE MOON
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/mime_midi.gif
Blue_Moon.mid (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Blue_Moon-33541.mid) (10.9 k)</td></tr></table></center>
I AIN'T GOT NOBODY
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/mime_midi.gif
Gigolo.mid (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/Gigolo-33542.mid) (19.5 k)</td></tr></table></center>
NEW YORK, NEW YORK
<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/mime_midi.gif
NY-2.mid (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/35939/NY-2-33543.mid) (10.9 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Tell me, folks, is that works?

[Herbert WENDE (herbert)]

Hi Kombrig,

Thank you for the lay-out of the LH buttons of your Bayan. As you say it is the same lay-out as a piano accordion has. Your recommendation to press chord buttons for only half the time, confirms what I have been doing mostly.

In your arrangements, the accordion is the solo instrument. I am using the accordion for the accompaniment of a soprano voice. The backing track must be supportive of the soloist, with clear cues, proper expression of harmonic structure and as part of it, a good bass line. The LH chords on the accordion are fixed in construction, not flexible. I have mostly dropped the LH of the accordion now and have replaced it with an acoustic guitar. I always use a double bass.

Best wishes,

Herbert

[Alek Yasko (kombrig)]

It's good to see you, Herbert!

I understood your explanations about arrangements. I agreed.
--------------
The LH chords on the accordion are fixed in construction, not flexible.
--------------
That's where you're wrong, my friend. Have you ever tried to play 'combuned' chords? For example: C + Gm, or Cm+Cdim, or C+Am.
Also, I use to play pretty often chords with the 'wrong bass': F(bass)+Cm(chord), F#(bass)+Am(chord), C#(bass)+G-7(chord) et cetera...
There is the endless amount of combination! It IS very flexible, believe me.

Be happy.
Kombrig.

And take a look to the 'Classical'.