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M G Jacobs (mgj32)
11-11-2007, 08:26 AM
Hi Mark,

Please look at "The Oxen 2007"

http://www.notation.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?26504/27834

The problem will be apparent if you look at measure 13, the vocal staff, the word "all;"
measures 18 and 19, the word "said;"
measures 36 and 37, the whole page (The only way to make it print normally is to reduce the dash);
measure 41, the word "doubt.

all best,
mgj

M G Jacobs (mgj32)
02-11-2008, 05:38 AM
Hi Sherry/Mark

Back again on this topic.

First, many congratulations on the promotion. You are one of those rare people who give words like "fantastic" a standard of meaning.

I am not sure whether the problem here is my ineptitude or a bug. Maybe it's both. Anyhow, take a look at the enclosed file. In Windows View, it looks okay. But please shift to page (print) view and you will see the problem at the end of the first staff and the beginning of the second. "For" slides from the C6 to the A5. The dash hangs off the edge of the staff. I have tried various ways to correct the situation, but they are at best cumbersome. Doing lyrics in Page View doesn't help with a dash that needs to be continued. Page layout has tools which help, but doing a song of several pages this way isn't practical. The best workaround is to draw a solid line, but lining one up isn't easy, as I found out before Christmas.

Am I missing something?

<center><table border=1><tr><td>http://www.notation.com/discus/icons/attachment_icon.gifsailing
Sailing Byzantium.not (http://www.notation.com/discus/messages/30406/Sailing_Byzantium-35165.not) (10.3 k)</td></tr></table></center>

Here is one thing you can try which will illustrate the frustration of dealing with melismas: Double click on "for"; click the note dash note icon or use ctrl + dash; enter a hyphen in the new box. Ahhhhh, perfectly aligned, but too puny to be useful. Enter 2-4 dashes in order to make it fully visible. Hit ESC. See?

all best,
mgj

Sherry Crann (sherry)
02-11-2008, 02:11 PM
Howdy MG,

As best I follow this, what I'm seeing is that

1. In your Sailing Byzantium file above, the lyric "For ---------" (9 dash marks) has the long melisma to carry the lyric slide from the C6 at the end of measure 7 to the A5 at the beginning of measure 8.

2. Changing from Window view to Page view puts measure 7 at the end of the first system, and the melisma "protrudes" over the end barline mark.

As I understand it, the melisma is carrying the lyric over to the next measure, so would you expect that Composer might automatically pull up measure 8 into the first system on the strength of the melisma being at the end of the measure?

(If in Layout, I click the "Keep measure with previous" button, and then click in measure 8, measure 8 moves to the first system, giving the proper melisma carry to the next note. This is the "manual" method http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif )

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Here is one thing you can try which will illustrate the frustration of dealing with melismas: Double click on "for"; click the note dash note icon or use ctrl + dash; enter a hyphen in the new box. Ahhhhh, perfectly aligned, but too puny to be useful. Enter 2-4 dashes in order to make it fully visible. Hit ESC. See? <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I'm not sure why you were using Ctrl + dash apparently after getting into the lyric-editing box. If I do the following, I get a melisma that is long enough to be seen, and is lined up as well.

1. Double-click the current "For---------", and use "Backspace" to delete all but four of the dash marks.
2. Hit the space bar (to advance to the next lyric) or simply click outside the lyric-edit box.
3. The melisma is lined up and extended, but not past the barline.

So I guess I'm not seeing the same problem as you outlined above. If you do the steps as I listed them, do you still see the "line up" problem?

If so, then I'm wondering if your printer driver may need to be updated. Sometimes updating printer drivers (which is part of the WYSIWIG dependence of Composer) can solve formatting problems that you might see in Page view. It's worth a try if you haven't done it in a while. (The printer driver not only affects how the page prints, but also how it looks in Page view, which is really a "Print Preview".)

Or am I just missing the point entirely?

ttfn,
Sherry

M G Jacobs (mgj32)
02-11-2008, 04:44 PM
Hi Sherry,

Printer (HP F4140) was Xmas gift. Downloaded updated drivers during the install. Wasn't that long ago, so assume they are up to date. Had same problem with previous printer.

quote: "3. The melisma is lined up and extended, but not past the barline."

Do you mean that by deleting some dashes after "For," you somehow got a dash under the A5 in the next measure (meas 8) that was lined up with with the "old" under the E6?

The essential question is how to get a continued dash lined up in the next system without spending hours drawing doing fine refinements on the positioning of solid lines and/of playing with page layout?

I gave the ctrl dash as one, just one, example of things I had tried.

Page layout works very well for this one example. But by the time I get through using that on a seven page song, where there are many instances of the same situation, it becomes a mess.

Try this in PAGE VIEW:
First, adjust the dash under "for."
2nd: switch to WINDOWS VIEW.
3rd: double click "for", hit space bar.
4th: enter a short dash under A6 and hit ESC.

I see a dash, whether in Windows of Page View that is not aligned with the rest of the lyrics. It is the proverbial sore thumb.

My whole system could be whacko, but it would seem odd, if so, that this is the one problem I've had regarding printing, don't you think?

all best,
mgj

Sherry Crann (sherry)
02-11-2008, 07:07 PM
Howdy MG,

I think I now see the root problem with melismas/dashes not lining up. The simplest case I see is the following:

1. Enter the lyric "For----" at C6.
2. Advance the lyric entry to the A5 and enter "----", without any characters previous to the dashes.
3. This A5 melisma does _not_ line up with the previous melisma coming off the C6 "For----".

This problem shows up regardless of Windows or Page view. Is this the basic description of the problem?

Sorry for being slow on the pick up here...

ttfn,
Sherry

M G Jacobs (mgj32)
02-11-2008, 07:20 PM
Hi Sherry,

quote: "3. This A5 melisma does _not_ line up with the previous melisma coming off the C6 "For----".

"This problem shows up regardless of Windows or Page view. Is this the basic description of the problem?}"

Yes. Nor does it line up with the following lyrics, it might be added. Even added in WV, the dash is raised. If the dash starting under "for" is extended in WV, the result in PV is the extension beyond the bar line.

The solid line is a very good work around; however, even with magnification, I can't do a very good job of lining the solid lines up, so the problem may ultimately be my glasses. http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/sad.gif

all best,
mgj

Sherry Crann (sherry)
02-11-2008, 08:11 PM
Howdy MG,

The problem is with Composer, not you nor your glasses http://www.notation.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I've added the "fix horizontal line-up of different melismas" to the "fix it" list. That's the main problem. When that gets fixed, then you won't need melismas that are long enough to extend to the next measure. You can properly add a "melisma only" lyric in that next measure that will line up properly with the melisma in the previous measure.

In case that didn't make sense to someone else following the conversation, in Notation products melisma's are treated just like lyrics (which is what they indeed "look like" to Composer). Thus, in MG's example above, the "For ---------" is treated as one lyric "component" or "syllable" that is associated with the C6 note on the last beat of measure 7. The melisma that is in the file above is long enough to extend to the A5 which is on beat one of measure 8, but Composer doesn't see the extended melisma as "belonging" to that A5 in any sense.

What we're trying to accomplish is to have a shorter melisma "For ----" associated with the C6, followed by a shorter melisma "----" associated with the A5, and have them line up seamlessly in the score. Each melisma would then be properly associated with the right note, and be "horizontally equivalent".

ttfn,
Sherry