| Author | Message | ||
     Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Registered Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2007 |
Hi I've had some time off this Easter to work on my compositions again. I wrote a song a few months ago and posted a version on Youtube asking if anybody would like to sing it. Although there was some interest shown, I couldn't wait that long, and wanted to test the piece for myself with a vocalist. So how did I do it ? I used the latest (just out) virtual female soprano Vocaloid 2. I thought you all might want to hear the results, but remember that because this is cutting-edge technology, there are drawbacks, most notably in the pronunciation of certain words. However, I am sure that you would agree that the end result is musically secure, despite some strange words, and infinitely better than anything I could have attempted to sing. The music was, as always, constructed totally on midinotate composer and exported to Cubase. The classical instruments are samples from East West Orchestra. Hope you like this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ml2q4FHpqZs cheers Adrian | ||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3739 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Adrian, This is beautiful song, with a compelling melody and forward-moving harmony. Being a lousy singer, I've shied away from writing songs with lyrics. Your use of the synthetic voice offers inspiring hope to vocally-challenged musicians like myself to be able to sketch songs with lyrics and immediately hear what they will approximately sound like. This would be a great topic for the Everyday Musician blog and forum I recently started at everydaymusician.com. Please consider also sharing your song and your tips about using Vocaloid over in the Everyday Musician. I'd love to hear what other song writers are doing with synthetic voices, so that I can then summarize the findings in a blog post in the Everyday Musician. Cheers -- Mark | ||
| David Jacklin (dj) Senior Forum User Username: dj Post Number: 644 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi, Adrian: Vocaloid doesn't have a demo that I'm aware of, just a few mp3's available to show it off. In your opinion, is it worth the purchase price? David | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Registered Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2007 |
Yes it is worth it, depending on your circumstances. I find it very difficulty to find a good live vocalist, so for me it's an essential substitute. The program is about about 75% "there", the main issues being those of the clarity of diction. Why do you think that their demos are in Italian rather than English ?..very telling ! You can see the results that I came up with by watching the youtube link posted above. And like all virtual instruments it needs a lot of editing to add reverb, etc in a sequencer like cubase. I believe that the direct download in slightly cheaper, too. | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Registered Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2007 |
sorry, by "demo" I mean mp3, not a demo you can play around with | ||
| Sherry Crann (sherry) Product Designer Username: sherry Post Number: 1857 Registered: 1-2004 |
Howdy Adrian, I liked this piece before, but having a vocalist gives it even more depth (even being a virtual vocalist). Your balance and interweaving of the instrumentation work well to keep the music moving. Great work! ttfn, Sherry | ||
| David Jacklin (dj) Senior Forum User Username: dj Post Number: 645 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi, Adrian: I was able to listen to some of your piece and liked what I heard a lot. Very melodic opening (I got kicked off line before I heard the chorus. High speed Internet coming to my area by summer!). I have to say, though, that Vocaloid is not there yet, I think. Even in their own demos, there are too many quirks and "robotic" moments. That's not a criticism of your music, Adrian. I like what I heard. I'm talking about the software. Maybe the next generation will nail it. David | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Registered Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2007 |
The piece I did with vocaloid seemed to go down quite well on youtube, and my friends liked it, despite the limitations, but... Just for the sheer fun of it, I posted a thread on vocaloid 2 on the forum of East West Virtual instruments. Now maybe that was asking for trouble, as the people on there seem to be seriously into the production side of music (ie. "those string samples could have been panned and put through a limiter", etc)- and many are obviously aspiring film composers. They gave me a bit of a hard time over it, to be honest, despite my insistence on the piece being a demo only - and it just goes to show that not all forums are as friendly as here. To these people, the idea of reviewing a raw midi file would be complete anathema ! So if you're interested, here is the response from the music technos http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=12748 I'm beginning to doubt my own ears now - as apart from the vocals' obvious limitations, I didn't think the production was THAT bad. Is there anybody here who knows about production who would give it a quick listen to put my mind at rest or otherwise ? http://www.soundclick.com/members/default.cfm?member=adrian+allan | ||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 250 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Adrian I am really sorry for what happened to you.What should have been fun turned out in a cruel spanking from people calling themselves experts and,maybe, teachers. Please consider yourself as a pioneer,with the courage to experiment with software like Vocaloid in an otherwise nice song. As an every day musician ,I liked what I heared in You Tube. I am sure that there are lots of true musicians in this Forum who are willing to guide you further in your efforts in a decent and friendly way. Don´t be too disappointed and keep on the good work. Regards | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Active Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2007 |
thanks for your support Having participated on other forums before I have noticed that there is a certain degree of one-up-manship and even bullying - especially when you are "new". I listened again to my piece on the higher quality video connection that I provided the East West forum, and the comment that the production is "horrendous" is completely over the top. Either that, or I've lost all my musical judgement overnight. So I've learned my lesson - ironically all the "untrained" ears on youtube really liked it (even with youtube's massive file compression). I some times wonder whether some techno musicians think that they know so much they end up missing the bigger picture. Perhaps Simon Cowell should post on East West's Forum - he'd be in good company ! | ||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3744 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Adrian, I hesitate to expand on my previous compliment to your Dark Distant Memories song, because it really shouldn't be my business, as a software developer, to "judge" the music that so many bring to this forum. My main interest is providing tools to help people make music, and to host a forum where musicians can support each other's music efforts. Thus, without setting an expectation on the part of others that I'll into much detail complimenting the many fine examples of music that you all create, I think it's ok for me to further compliment your Dark Distant Memories song, to counter some discouragement you received in another third party forum. I think the Dark Distant Memories demonstrates excellent craftsmanship on your part in several ways. Perhaps most compelling is the melody of Dark Distant Memories. It has a landscape of dramatic rolling hills-- not mountains with rocky jagged edges-- but nevertheless towering hills contrasted with valleys with gentle brooks. The melodies are memorable, very well constructed. I wish I could write melodies like that. The harmony serves the melody and song well. The harmony, like the melody, moves forward, keeps the song in motion. Yet, the harmony, like the melody, creates a landscape of rolling hills. The harmony doesn't shock the listener with sudden changes, as which might be appropriate for a different kind of piece that would want to emphasize excitement and tension. The orchestration very well supports the vocal part when it has the foreground, and then the orchestration takes on its own life when the vocal part rests. The structure of the piece, such as the phrasing, is logical, not in a mechanical (classical) way, but in a compelling, romantic, story-telling way. Your Dark Distant Memories is simply an excellent song. I would be proud if I had written it. I haven't looked at, and don't intend to look at, the comments in the other forums. I don't necessarily find fault with other forums where there is harsh criticism. Each forum tends to establish what it is about. Some forums scrutinize the production values of the music. There is definitely a place for that. Some forums focus on orchestration technique. Some forums focus on composition technique. This forum and the new Everyday Musician forum I recently started at www.everydaymusician.com focus on the process of creating music. We tell stories with the music we create. In this forum, we share our musical stories with each other. If we want constructive criticism, we ask for it. It is very rare in this forum when someone rudely criticizes another's music, especially unsolicited. I've only silently deleted a couple of such posts ever in several years of this forum. I don't want to claim that this forum is "better" than other forums. This forum is just different, in that it is oriented towards "encouragement" as a way that we help each other in our music making efforts. There's a place in this forum also for technical advice, but never at the expense of encouragement. Dark Distant Memories is an excellent song. It deserves live performance. | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Active Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2007 |
Thanks Mark, you're a gentleman. I won't be discouraged by the comments on East West's forum. To be told that the music was "horrendous" and unlistenable due to the sound production actually brought home to me one clear messsage: some people are so obsessed with the technical side of music making that they can't actually hear the music for itself. If I've managed to communicate a mood or emotion, then that is far more important to me than whether the piano should have had more equalization. Thanks again Adrian | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 168 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi Adrian, Do not kill the messenger. I agree with most of what was said about the sound track of your song on soundonline. The recording is extremely poor. Appreciating music involves listening to sound. Yet your composition is a very beautiful ballad. It is one of the very best songs I have heard for a long time. Margaret (my wife) listened to your song and said that she would like to give it a try. If it suits you, send me the .not file of your composition. My address is: berghofen@ccregion.com.au. Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| David Jacklin (dj) Senior Forum User Username: dj Post Number: 646 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi, Adrian: It's YOUR crank; turn it as you see fit. I've spent literal decades banging my head against walls in my art. I don't fit anyone's niche and no longer even try. My reply to excessive criticism (useful criticism I can handle) is "There's my resume, bub. Where's yours?" That ALWAYS shuts 'em up. Keep making music. David | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 169 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi David, I do not understand your post. Could you please explain? What I hear is a very beautiful composition by Adrian, presented in a hopeless way. I think we should encourage and help Adrian to do better if he wants to engage in sound production. Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3745 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Herbert, Your quote focuses on what is important to Adrian: It is appropriate in this forum to offer gentle encouragement to others to improve. But it is inappropriate to criticize with words such as "hopeless", especially when criticism is not solicited by the musician. It's clear that you want to provide encouragement here, as you have even offered your wife's voice. I believe your encouragement would have been more effective here with more careful choice of words. Thanks for your active participation here in this forum. I hope you won't don't take this bit of unsolicited advice on my part as harsh. Cheers -- Mark | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Active Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2007 |
Don't worry all - I don't take offence at all. It's about a difference in approach; I agonize over every note in my melodies, and go through pages of manuscript before I'm happy with what I produce. I only have one rule of self judgement - if it doesn't "work" as a piece on the piano, it will never work, no matter how much time is spent on production. I'm really aiming my output as musicians who can spot this potential in music. I probably don't fit into the forums on EastWest - people there seem probably spend two hours just fixing a mic at the right level over a piano. In truth, I think that I'm on the right side of the fence in putting the music first. I had a listen to one of the songs by one of the most harsh of the EastWest posters - granted, the production was great, but to me, there was very little of interest in the music. And I still maintain that "terrible" is something that the general public can spot (who almost universally liked the demo), and not just the Technos. Just as a "terrible" performance would have lots of slips and mistakes, so many that even the general public would notice. A performance would not be terrible because the rubatos were misjudged and the trills were back to front, it would be terrible because even the untrained listeners were cringing in their seats. | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 170 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi Mark, You said:” It is appropriate in this forum to offer gentle encouragement to others to improve. But it is inappropriate to criticize with words such as "hopeless", especially when criticism is not solicited by the musician.” Yet Adrian said:” Is there anybody here who knows about production who would give it a quick listen to put my mind at rest or otherwise ?” Adrian had asked people engaged in sound production for an opinion. They were critical. By asking in this forum if they were right, we must apply their standards as well as we can. I just think they were right to some extend. Honesty is never wrong but a lot more helpful than just nice words. I hope, Adrian sees me as being supportive. Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| David Jacklin (dj) Senior Forum User Username: dj Post Number: 647 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi, Herbert: All I meant was that music (and art in general) is self-expression. Don't worry too much about excessive criticism (e.g. from the external sound production group he mentioned) as, in the end, you have to feel good about your work. On the other hand, constructive criticism should always be welcomed. My general rule is that, if we are not our own harshest critics, then somebody else must be. The timing of the post may have made it seem that it was in reply to yours, Herbert, but it was not. | ||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3747 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Herbert, Adrian said: You said: So, my comment about choice of words was perhaps over-protective of maintaining a tone of encouragement when delivering constructive criticism. I'm glad there are no hard feelings here from anyone's perspective. Let's get back to making music. Cheers -- Mark | ||
| M G Jacobs (mgj32) Senior Forum User Username: mgj32 Post Number: 847 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hi Adrian, I've been reading this thread with something close to consternation. It seems that some people technically adept (in their own estimation, at least) at making good recordings were being nasty about your song, which I thought quite good and well orchestrated, when I listened a couple of times at the first address you posted, and still thought so when I listened again at Soundclick. It is a rather unpleasant vision : people whose task it is to make the listening experience as satisfying as possible, who seem to start somewhere other than with an appreciation of the music, itself. Unless they are someday going to be responsible for producing a recording of something you write, it would seem to me that thinking about them is a waste of time that might better be spent writing more music. The tread started with your post of the "Dark...Memories," which used Vocaloid. I thought you might be interested in looking at another that I ran across two, maybe three years ago. It was a module that would plug into a music notation program I tried out back then, when I was searching for what I finally found in MidiNotate. I have been searching my head and computer for the name of it, but have come up empty (it was at least two wipes and reinstalls of XP ago). All I can recall for sure is that it was European, I think French, and either the company or program starts with "M" (Minerva jumps to mind, but I don't know) and it was modestly priced--maybe $30. As I recall the voice module had several voices, from a sultry, breathy female to an operatic tenor. I tried it for a few measures of my "Simple Gifts," and that sounded fairly decent. If I can recall any more, I'll post the information in Third Party Products. I did look up Vocaloid, but it's price is way beyond my means. Anyhow, your song is a success, as far as I'm concerned, and I will be hearing it again. Those guys on that forum: irrelevant. all best, mgj | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Active Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2007 |
thank you for your support. I'm in two minds about the comments in general - I think that there ARE problems with the production, BUT I did state at the outset that the recording was only a "demo", and as such should be treated as such. On the other hand, people are right in saying that to get anywhere in music today you have to be a writer and producer, because nobody will take you seriously in such a competitive world. And this is of course also true. My biggest issue was with the DEGREE of condemnation - as I said in the last post, "terrible" in music should wrong notes and distortion, etc, not just too much EQ on the piano. Fortunately I'm very thick skinned. I have enough self belief to know that at the end of the day the most important thing in music are the values that I have spent many years working on: harmonic interest, key change, extended chords, accented melodic dissonance, tension and release and above all a melody that is new, but somehow "sounds familiar". And I know it sounds pretentious, but I didn't feel like I was writing the song, but chipping away a block of stone to reveal a sculpture that was already there - and if it the song "writes itself" like that I know that I've succeeded. I think the software you have in mind may be "Miriam" which is a an older vocaloid for a soul-based female voice. The newer vocaloid is supposed to be technically better, but in truth no voice software is going to put singers out of a job for a few years yet. There was a time when LP records were made in a day - but now people spend two hours just fixing a mic above a piano. Thankfully some people like you and me are not so technically obsessed that the the production ALWAYS comes before the music. Thanks again Adrian Ps if you get the chance check out my other stuff on Youtube under my name - there's a guitar piece I wrote a few years ago. | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Active Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2007 |
pps - do you write your own music too - ? - I'll have a look on this forum, because I'm interested to know if you share a similar taste, style, etc. | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 171 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi David, Thank you, for your response. I can see that we have similar views. Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 172 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi Mark, Thank you, for your response. Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 173 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi, Can we stop bashing technical people? I am one of them. Herbert | ||
| David Jacklin (dj) Senior Forum User Username: dj Post Number: 648 Registered: 4-2003 |
Dang technical people! It's like the old joke. Cecille B. DeMille sets up the Circus Maximus shot with lions, chariots, gladiators, ten thousand extras. He shouts "Action!" The chariots roll, the crowd roars, the lions fight, the gladiators gladiate. The action is stupendous. He yells "Cut!" and says: "Was that okay for sound?" "Okay!" "Okay for lights?" "Okay!" "Okay for camera?" "Ready when you are, Mr. DeMille." David P.S. I'm off right now to repair the lighting console at our theatre. I NEED a technical people! | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 174 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi Adrian, Many musicians, I know have very little understanding of acoustics and of what good sound is. A musician may get away with those shortcomings. A composer, an arranger or a conductor, needs to understand well the basis of sound. The composer Karl Heinz Stockhausen even studied acoustics to enhance his craft. If you want to compose music for just a few musicians to play from a score, then Notation Composer is all you need. If you want to produce music as sound tracks, then you need to manage a production system and consider the basis of sounds. In particular, your hearing needs to be trained well, to be able to make judgments. I have listened to the backing track of “Dark Distant Memories”. Firstly the sounds from EWO are very poor. Another sample library will fix this problem. The level of a .wav file, derived from the .mp3 file, frequently exceeds 0dB, resulting in distortion. The volume level of the instruments need to be very carefully balanced against each other, but in total never add up or exceed 0dB. I am aiming at -1dB for the maximum peak of the track. Random waves of several instruments add up by the square root of the sum of the individual levels. Four violins will give you only twice the sound level. Reverb adds to the level. Do not use effects unless you have a good reason. Reverb is the only effect you might want to add and possibly only for the vocalist. If you produce a backing track for a life performance, do not add reverb, as you need to add it during the performance to suit the auditorium. Cubase should give you all you need as production software. The most practical recording is simply a stereo recording. You need a pair of good studio speakers with a matching subwoofer, all suitably placed and driven by a linear amplifier. A four string double bass goes down to 41.2 Hz; a five string double bass to 32.7 Hz. Bass drums produce very low sounds. If you use a home hi-fi system, make sure that it is set to a linear frequency response (no bass or treble lift). You need to listen to the music at the level the listener will finally hear. Human hearing is not linear in respect to the sound level. Perception of high frequency notes with their harmonics and low frequency notes falls of at lower levels. If you work on a life production, the volume level at which you monitor the results, will be quite high. Not too good if you have neighbors living close by. I live in the Australian bush where I might only frighten of some kangaroos, when listening to some of the music, I am working on. The fundamental aim of a sound system is to produce sounds as close as possible to the original or intended sound. Even the best systems are not fully satisfactory and in some ways unreal. As you can see, it can all be relatively simple. How well you have trained your hearing will set the quality of the result. Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Active Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2007 |
Thank you, Herbert. I take on board all the advice that you offer. Some of the advice I may need to research to fill the gaps in my own knowledge. For example (pardon my ignorance), I thought that 0db was the same as "silence", so the concept of -1db is new to me. And the only thing I have been looking for for now is that the sounds don't cross into the "red" and produce distortion on cubase. The sample library that I work with is East West because it is the highest regarded by composers, so it is more likely that I could spend more time refining the sounds. So thanks again, and maybe some time in the future you and your wife might be able to give it a go. Adrian | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 175 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi Adrian, “dB” is a ratio expressed logarithmically. 0dB means it is the original value or an agreed standard. Start with: http:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel Very good is: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/ If you don’t mind a few German words thrown in with the English also: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Calculations03.htm and http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 176 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi David, Hope that you have not fallen of the ladder, blown too many fuses or sent the whole town into darkness. Anything that is not normally expressed in mV or mA is too dangerous for me. Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 177 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi Adrian, “0dB” in audio software is the maximum recording level. If you go above this value, the sound will be distorted. I had loaded the .mp3 file into the sound editor Goldwave, the file is automatically converted to a .wav file. Goldwave is a very good audio editor from goldwave.com at a reasonable price. Goldwave permits you to find maximum recording levels automatically. Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Active Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2007 |
thanks for that link to goldwave. I've downloaded it, but it might take me some time to work out how to use it. | ||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi Adrian, In Goldwave go to Effect on the menu bar, then to Volume, Maximize Volume. Do not execute the command if you only want to find the max value of the level. Best wishes, Herbert | ||
| Adrian Allan (adrianallan) Active Forum User Username: adrianallan Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2007 |
I'll try that. The software allowed a limited trial period. Right now I'm working on another song that has sat on the shelf for some time. I actually lost the midi file and so bought VivaldiScan to scan the manuscript and convert it into midi. Best wishes, adrian. |
