| Author | Message | ||||
     Randy Evans Unregistered Guest |
I am testing midinotate for possible purchase and I love it so far. I am having a problem as follows: I create midi files on my Yamaha PSR 3000 keyboard and import them into midinotate. I edit them and save them as .mid files. When I put them back into my PSR 3000, all the instruments on different channels have changed to acoustic piano. The file plays fine but the bass is now a piano, the guitar is a piano, the horn is a piano, etc. Is that normal or am I overlooking something when I do the save as command? If I can solve this, I'll buy the product. | ||||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3058 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Randy, Are you able to play directly from Composer, via MIDI Out and a MIDI cable or USB cable to your PSR 3000 without loss of instrument sound assignments? Cheers -- Mark | ||||
| Randy Evans Unregistered Guest |
I have not tried to play directly from the software through the keyboard with a cable. What I do is save the file as .mid on a USB thumb drive and plug it straight into the keyboard. Is that the same thing, really? I will try to upload 2 files of the same song Dream Dream Dream. The first one is straight out of my keyboard with all channels having the right instruments. The second one with the word "save" in the name is that first file which I imported into composer via USB stick, made no edits to it in composer, and simply saved it in Composer as a .mid on the USB stick. To the PSR 3000 it now has all channels with piano as the instrument except ch. 10 the drum track. It plays but its all pianos.
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| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3059 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Randy, The problem here is that there is a loss of information about the assignment of MIDI file tracks to MIDI banks and programs (patches) on your PSR3000. The first thing I'm trying to understand here is whether the loss of information is when you move the MIDI file from your PSR3000 to Composer, or whether the loss of information is when you're going the other direction from Composer to the PSR3000. No, there's a big difference here between Composer's playing through a USB cable to your PSR3000 versus your carrying the MIDI file exported from Composer over to your PSR3000. In fact, that's exactly why I was interested in what happens if you play directly from Composer to your PSR3000. That will help me pin down whether the problem is in carrying the MIDI file from your PSR3000 to Composer, or whether the program is going the other direction. Would you be wiling to try to play from Composer directly to your PSR3000? It should be easy to do, and perhaps even fun and rewarding in itself. Cheers -- Mark | ||||
| Randy Evans Unregistered Guest |
I don't know how to connect the two. I don't have a midi cable and I don't know of another way to connect the laptop to the PSR. I'll try whatever you suggest. In the meantime, I'll attach the same song file, the midi created on the pSR and saved on the USB stick. This time I will merely copy the file, using explorer, to the Midinotate/program files/songs directory. No Composer action, no open or save as, will take place. Just a MS copy. Will that be helpful? You could look at it before any action and then open it and then look at it again. Thanks for your interest and help. Randy
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| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3108 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Randy, I'm taking a fresh new look at the problem. I don't see that there is a problem with the '2-Dream Mid Save.mid' file that you saved in Composer. It has same instrument sound (MIDI patches) as the original file '2-Dream Dream Dream.mid', and not the patch 0 grand piano values. Let's explore whether Composer is even part of the problem: What ever way it is that you save the MIDI file in your PSR3000, do that first. Then just immediately open it again in your PSR3000. Composer and any other PC software it totally out of the picture in this case. It's just the PSR3000 talking with itself. Is the PSR3000 able to reopen and play the MIDI file without a loss of the instrument sound assignments? For now, you can ignore my suggestion about having Composer play back through the USB cable to your PSR3000. I don't know any details about the PSR3000 and what driver you might need to install on your Windows machine to communicate MIDI between your computer and your PSR3000. Cheers -- Mark | ||||
| Ronnie Unregistered Guest |
Hi Mark, Sorry to jump in here but I have the same problem as Mark on a psr s 900. After I have added lyrics to a midi file all the intstruments change to a piano, it takes me ages to sort them all out again on my k/b | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 254 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Sherry Not knowing where to put this ,I took the liberty to use this thread for a small problem.When trying to save enclosed not.file as a Mid.file the original mid.file shows up without the alterations I made.I need a MP3/Wav for rehearsel purposes.the person in question not having a Notation program ( shame on her ).I tried Musician and Composer,same ( i.e. no )results. The file might be corrupted in some way I guess. Any suggestions ? Regards Djim
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| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3758 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Djim, I opened this Take Five .not file, edited some, saved it as a .MID file, and successfully reopened it with the saved changes. What specified steps did you take that resulted in finding no changes in the reopened MIDI file? Cheers -- Mark | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 255 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Mark Enclosed is the original midi file and I made some changes to the demand of the accordeon player. Changed the key to Gmaj and the treble clef in the first three meaures in LH to bass clef.I must have done something illogical I guess. Thanks for the help. Regards Djim
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| Sherry Crann (sherry) Product Designer Username: sherry Post Number: 1861 Registered: 1-2004 |
Howdy Djim, I'm wondering if perhaps your original .mid and the edited .mid have the same name, but are located in different folders. I've accidentally done that myself a few times. You might try saving a file, and see if the folder is a different one than you were trying to retrieve your edited file from. ttfn, Sherry | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 256 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Sherry and Mark Yes, I also checked that posiibility.I forgot to tell you,Mark,that after changing Bes to G maj both LH and RH staves were transposed one octave above plus.The save mid file is in Gmaj,but the transpositions were all " gone ".Thatīs were things went wrong, I guess. Regards Djim | ||||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 179 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi Djim, Just a thought. Does the song sound wrong or is the notation wrong? Have you changed the key signature or have you transposed the song? Best wishes, Herbert | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 257 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Herbert Thanks for the support. In Take 5 ,I both changed the key and made transpositions in RH and LH to bring the song " within range " of an accordeon.When saved as mid , only the key change remained and the transpositions " gone ".I did the same with other songs, same results withs Notation Musician.In Composer there is no mid file at all( empty ). Maybe I should re-install both ?BTW, the song sounds alright after saving as midi and re-opening,but without the transpositions. Regards Djim | ||||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3759 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Djim, Which type of transposition did you choose for Staff / Transpose? You should choose Transpose Actual Pitches if you want to actually hear the notes down (or up) an octave. If you choose that option, then the MIDI file will be saved with the new pitches. If you choose the other option, Transpose Instrument Key, then the notes will appear an octave up or down in the score, but they'll still be heard at their original pitch level. Also, in this case, if you save the song as the MIDI file, the pitch changes will not be saved. If this was the source of confusion, please let me know what I can do to help other users avoid the confusion. I've been working on this user interface problem for several years, and have gradually reduced the number of support requests by at least 90%, but there still seems to be room for improving the user interface to help users understand the difference between the two types of transpositions. I'm afraid I'm running out of ideas for further improving part of the user interface. Maybe after the user hits the 'Next' key, Composer should say, "Is this REALLY want you want?", followed by a duplicate explanation of the difference between the two types of transpositions.  Or, maybe you're running into some different kind of problem, in which case we'll have some more investigation to do. Cheers -- Mark | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 259 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Mark Sorry for the troubles. I used Transpose actual pitches to get the notes up/down (one or more) in octaves I used Transpose Instrument key to change,letīs say ,a song in Bes maj to G maj. I think that Musician is quite clear about that. The only problem is that the Transposition to actual pitches is not saved in the "new" mid file. Strange enough it is precisely the opposite as described above. Using Transpose instrument key, it is saved at the desired key ,G maj,while using the Transpose Actual pitches ( down or up octaves ) ,no changes. According to me there is no confusion possible about the meaning of " key " and " pitches in octaves" in a song as described in Musician. MG,Dave ,Herbert and others may have a different opinion on this. Regards Djim | ||||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3760 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Djim, I still don't see the problem. Here's what I did:
If you're still having this problem, please exactly follow the above steps first to see if you can reproduce the problem. Assuming that you, like me, won't run into the problem following the above steps, please then show me similar steps that do reproduce the problem. Thanks! Cheers -- Mark | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 263 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Mark Forgive me my ignorance.In my Musician staff setup : TRANSPOSE ACTUAL PITCHES is used to change ,lets say, Bes to Gmaj TRANPOSE INSTRUMENT KEY to go up/down in one octave steps Shouldnīt it be the reverse ? In my case the score is : correctly displayed with the altered Bes to Gmaj : FAILURE TO display the altered UPS/DOWNS Precisely the opposite of what you mentioned above, I did the whole thing over again and made screen shots of every step. Please tell me if itīs important to you and I will load it up. Regards | ||||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3763 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Djim, I can't answer that. It depends on which way you want it. I can't tell which way you want it because there is nothing in the wording of "change Bes to Gmaj" that tells me whether you want to change only how the pitches are displayed/notated, or whether you also want to change how the pitches are heard. These are two different types of transpositions. If this is still confusing for you, then I'll try to settle this confusion once and for all by preparing a 4- or 5-minute tutorial Flash video that explains in much detail the difference between these two types of transpositions. The other way you might approach learning this is to just start with a simple song that is just a C scale. Try transposing the actual pitches first, by say, two half-steps, and then see and hear what difference that makes. Save the song as a MIDI file and reopen it, and you'll see that the change in the pitches have been saved. Then try it the other way. Transpose the instrument key, and then see and hear what difference that makes. You'll hear no change in the pitches, but you'll see a different. Save the song as MIDI file and reopen it, and you'll still hear no change in the pitches; and also you'll will see that the displayed/notated pitches are the same as the pitches you started with: the MIDI file doesn't know anything about instrument key transpositions. Cheers -- Mark | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 264 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Msrk " and the Guru said : there shall be light" and there is some light dawning on me about this issue. I also think that this is a good tutorial,although nobody but me seems to have had problems understanding the difference between both options and its effects on the song.So save your precious time. As a matter of fact I wanted both in one strike; change keys and pitches,see the notation ( to print out or to keep/sent as not.file )AND hear all changes in a mid file, which is impossible as I now understand. I will now follow your lessons as described above and hopefully learn to handle Musician the right way. Thanks very much for your efforts and patience. Regards Djim | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 265 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Mark Just to say thanks again and I now ,at last, fully understand the meaning of transposing actual pitches versus transposing instrument keys and its effects on notation and sound. Regards Djim | ||||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3765 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hello Djim, That's good that you figured out the difference between these two types of transpositions, but not good that Composer didn't help you figure out the difference more easily. While it is still fresh in your memory the difficulty you had with this, do you have any suggestions about how Composer's user interface might be designed to have helped you more easily understand the difference between actual pitch transposition and instrument key transposition? Cheers -- Mark | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 266 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Mark I was confused by the terms PITCH and KEY transpositions. As I now understand is : Pitch transposition means a step wise change in the KEY of the song i.e ,for example Bes to Es maj/min, which means changing the key AND the sound of a song which is also saved when saved as midi file. Key transposition means going up/down one or more octaves WITHIN a certain defined key and only visible in the notation program to get the notes " within visible /playable range " of an instrument and does not affect sound and is, of course ,not saved in the midi file. I hope that my explanation might give you a clue as to the possible confusion one ( me ) might get about Composers meaning of the feature pitch and/or key transpositions. Perhaps I should have paid more attention in Music class long time ago. My only conclusion is that I have been performing the above mentioned actions many times,without using my ( old ) brains. So,I wonder whether you should change Composerīs interface. As far as I know ,nobody in the Forum has ever come up with this problem before. Hope this might help defining your opinion about Composers interface and whether it should be changed or not. Regards Djim | ||||
| Sherry Crann (sherry) Product Designer Username: sherry Post Number: 1865 Registered: 1-2004 |
Howdy Djim, Thanks for your explanation. The transposition feature has been a sticky spot for a long time, because it's an area that is difficult to describe in words and easily understand. Which is why we're looking for those words in the terms that our musicians use, rather than what may have been in the music dictionary from your (or anyone's) class  Or, does anyone have a suggestion for a method (a picture or such?) that better presents the difference between transposing the actual pitches/key of a piece, versus the instrument key transposition (see - I ended up using "key" in both places, which can be confusing). ttfn, Sherry "always searching for a better way" | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 267 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Sherry The only way to find out "what is doing what" , is just to play around with the features and to see the results.Whatīs in a name afterall as long as it can do the job . I would not recommend saying this to your pupils and/or children, however. But I surely understand what you mean with regard to the software. Maybe MG ,Dave or Herbert will come up with an academic or practical approach for this issue. Regards Djim | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 268 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Sherry Please tell me to shut up if I am getting boring about the subject of key and pitches,but I am still wondering about the following: A. why is it that when selecting staff-setup-transpose actual pitches- the window with the key signature is showing up to change pitches with half steps,which really changes the sound and also the pitches of course B. when choosing - instrument key - the window to change pitches in octaves shows up ,which does NOT change the key but only to " accomodate " the pitch of an instrument or a singer after changing the " original " key. It would be more obvious to me when in -staff-setup- the following ( as an example ) could be seen: TRANSPOSING PITCHES : a. key signature....change pitches in half steps, then the window with the key shows up b. in octaves....... change pitches without affecting the key to " accomodate "...etc. then the window to change in octaves shows Just a thought to make it easier ( not necessarily better )to understand this feature in Musician/Composer,at least to me. BTW, how are your Labs doing ? Regards Djim | ||||
| Sherry Crann (sherry) Product Designer Username: sherry Post Number: 1869 Registered: 1-2004 |
Howdy Djim, We don't use the phrase "shut up" around here, so I'd never say that ;) I also would never discourage questions or suggestions regarding features, because that's a large part of how we improve the software! The area of clearly defining the two different transpositions has also been a very difficult one, so we're always looking for ways to improve it. I'm putting in a couple of annotated screen shots below to try to explain the current way that Composer (and Musician) handles the two different transpositions. The first is the Actual Pitch change. This type of change affects _all staves_ for a certain number of measures (from as small as one measure up to the entire song).  What can we improve to make this dialog clearer as to function? The next is the Instrument Key change. This type of change only affects the selected staves because they are for a "transposing instrument", and it affects all measures for that instrument.  And again, what can we improve to make this dialog clearer as to function? I'm quite serious when I ask these questions, so anyone please feel free to jump in! Now, working backward... Here is the current first step dialog box:  Would the following dialog as the first step be any clearer for differentiating between the two types of transposition?  Or does anyone have a different (or further) suggestion for making it clearer? The labs are doing fine - being dogs ttfn, Sherry | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 269 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Sherry Thanks for your positive response.In my opinion is the last picture exactly explaining the meaning and the purpose of the transposing feature in Composer/Notation,marking the differences/possibilities of changing pitches for ALL STAVES versus an INSTRUMENT stave. Just one final question,though. How about changing "TRANSPOSE INSTRUMENT KEY " into "TRANSPOSE INSTRUMENT PITCHES ", just leaving the meaning of "KEY" to the academics ? Finally, pics no.1 and no.2 would do fine in the Quick Start guide. Regards Djim | ||||
| Mark Walsen (markwa) Notation Software Developer Username: markwa Post Number: 3768 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jumping in... I believe that "pitch" clearly refers to the real actual sound. "Pitch" is used that way in both common language, as well as in the language of musicians, and also in the language of technologists. "Pitch" means the same thing to everyone. It would be very confusing to say that a B-flat clarinet "changes the pitch from C to B-flat". There are pitch-shifting electronic devices (and also software programs) that can change (transpose) the actual heard pitch. But that isn't something that the clarinet does. Rather, the B-flat clarinet musician reads "C" in the score, and "thinks" he's playing a "C", but what is heard is a B-flat. Cheers -- Mark | ||||
| Herbert WENDE (herbert) Senior Forum User Username: herbert Post Number: 183 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi Djim, Think of instrument transposition as a way of making writing and reading of music easier. Most notes stay within the five lines of a staff or close to it. A Bb clarinet player plays his Bb instrument with simple fingering, as if it were a C instrument. Instrument transposition is not intended to influence the sound of a song. Concert transposition on the other hand, is all about the sound. Each key sounds different. The key of C sounds neutral. As you change to keys by adding to the key signature #s or bs, the characteristics of the sound changes increasingly. Best wishes, Herbert | ||||
| Djim Tio (djimtio) Senior Forum User Username: djimtio Post Number: 270 Registered: 2-2007 |
Hi Sherry,Mark and Herbert Thanks for the ( free ) on-line music theory tuition which gave me ( and perhaps other Composer/Musician users )more insight in what I am doing when using the notation software feature.I also found a comprehensive article in Wikipedia on this matter ( about the meaning of CONCERT PITCH and INSTRUMENT PITCH and itīs applications in music ). Herbertīs explanation of the two functions is quite clear also avoiding the word "instrument key " which according to me is quite confusing . To my knowledge ( please correct me if not so ) a "( instrument )Key Signature is an arrangement of sharps and flats or the absence of both to determine the principal pitches to be played " and not to be transposed in octaves up/down as stated in the dialog window in staff setup. Personally I would stick to the terms of CONCERT PITCH - and INSTRUMENT PITCH transpositions and Herbertīs definitions of them. Up to Sherry whether these discussions might help in determining whether or not to review the content of the dialog windows in Composer/Musician. Regards Djim | ||||
| Michael Dodson (michael8648) Registered Forum User Username: michael8648 Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2008 |
Sherry, I probably "cheat" or am doing it the hard way. I dunno. I select the entire set of staves (except drum staves). If the notes in the selected block are not highlighted, I type <qcrn> so all the notes are blue. I hold down the control key and use <up> or <down> key to move the notes the number of halfsteps I want changed. This may sound strange but it works. I may have a lot more accidentals than desired. It would probably be advisable to change the key signature to match the number of halfsteps that I moved the notes. If you save the notation file after that, I guarantee the change will be very evident. I've made changes that exceeded an octave this way. Maybe it's not pretty, but I know it works. Michael | ||||
| Sherry Crann (sherry) Product Designer Username: sherry Post Number: 1874 Registered: 1-2004 |
Howdy Michael, "Different strokes for different folks" The way you're doing it does indeed work, and for some occasions may be more desirable as you can see the progression more closely. What the "Staff > Transpose Actual Pitches" command does is essentially what you're doing, only automated. The bonus in using the command, though, is that it automatically changes the key signature for you. Using your method, you'll need to double-click the key signature in the score and manually change it, if you're saving the file as a .not file. If you save it as a .mid file, Notation will make a best guess at the key signature when it re-opens the file, so you'll get the correct key signature. If you save the file as a .not, Notation assumes you really do want the accidentals in there for that particular key signature, and it doesn't change the work that you've done. ttfn, Sherry |
File from PSR before import to composer
Take 5